SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application. I'm Andy Davison.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm Josh Weisman. Together, we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team. One episode at a time.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

We hear it all the time. People want more feedback. But what if more isn't actually the answer? This week, we're digging into what makes feedback genuinely useful and how to skip the empty calories and give people something they can actually use.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Morning, Andy Davison. How's it going today?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Um, it's hot and humid as usual.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I was in, I think I told you this. I was in Phoenix last week. Um so this is Phoenix in July. Uh someone needs to tell me why people actively choose to be in Phoenix in July. Uh but it was 114 degrees the first day I was there. That was the high, 114. And the overnight low, like in central Phoenix, I think was 93. That is the low. Like what? Why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

But Josh, it's a dry heat.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, but it's a dry heat if yeah, if only that actually really made a difference. Um, I have a story to tell you. Oh yes. Uh, yeah, so um, this is one of those like tell me you're almost 50 without telling me you're almost 50. So I turned 50 next year uh in 2027. Um, as you know, I play a lot of indoor soccer last night. Uh so Wednesday nights is my um over 40 men's team. Uh and so we had our game last night and we we've been struggling for numbers. We only had one sub. Uh so you know, you you're putting in a long shift uh on the field. It was a great game. We ended up winning 11 to 10, which was like super exciting. Yeah. But because yeah, I was awesome. Um, because we were uh struggling for numbers, we've been struggling for numbers. There's another team in the league that's been having a lot of the same issue. Their names, by the way. This is like this is what happens when 40-year-old white men have to come up with a name for their rec soccer league. The name is no joke, it's victorious secret.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Victorious is in winning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Victorious Secret. Anyway, so they they've been struggling for numbers too. And um, I connected with their captain. We decided that we're gonna combine teams for next session. So it's 5v5 in this particular indoor league. They typically have roughly four to six guys that show up. We typically have roughly four to six guys that show up. We'll combine and we'll have good numbers, right? Well, last night or yesterday before I left, um, I was chatting, texting with the captain of that team, and he mentioned that they only had three guys showing up last night. So they didn't even have enough to feel the full side. So um, so I talked to you know a couple of my team members, and myself and one other team member decided to stick around so that we could help them with their games. So I ended up playing two games last night, uh, and two games shorthanded. I think my my aura said that between the two games, I did something like almost 8,000 steps of soccer. I'm like, it was a lot of running, it was a lot of running. Um, which was great. I had so much fun, it was a blast, it was really nice to like play that much. But then you know, you get in the car and it's like almost a 30-minute drive uh at that hour to get home. And so I'm sitting in the car, and then I get home and getting out of the car, I felt like I aged 30 years in that 30 minutes. Do you ever have that experience like after riding or anything like that, where you're like, oh, these creaky old bones.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I will go out and ride both horses. So on a day that I ride Boston and Marshall, and it's July, and it's hot, and it's humid, and and and I'm dehydrated, like all the things. I will come in from the barn and sit on the couch and just literally have to convince myself that I did not just get hit by a semi-truck. That I'm just like, whoa, whoa, I have to recover from that.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Recover, yeah, from just taking a couple horse rides. Right. What what is happening? I was literally like, I got home, I was laying in bed with Greta, you know, watching a little TV, relaxing after the games. And I literally, I still I can see myself and hear myself saying this, and I'm like, how did I become that person? I'm literally like, oh, my right foot arthritis is really achy today.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Oh, oh, like what in the world? What in the world?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Um, I have another story to share with you. I you and I recently spoke at the AVMA. Um, and I heard in a session there they were talking about like some of the demographic changes. I don't think any of this is gonna really surprise anybody. Um, but over the last few years, as I think you're aware, Andy, our profession, vetmed, has really become predominantly female. In fact, I think it's something like 80% of uh incoming veterinary students now are female. Uh so we we we are very much turning into like a female dominated profession, which is in very much contrast to the postal service, which is highly male dominated.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Very good, very good, very good.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

And with that, very good.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

I don't even know what else to say.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Just very good. I like it. Thank you. Thank you for the very good. Yeah. Um, on a slightly more serious note, uh, we did speak at AVMA. And you know, when we go to these conferences, there's all sorts of tracks and different things that we can attend. And as you know very fairly well, because you also speak on similar topics to me, pretty much anybody in like a management or a leadership role in vetmed has definitely attended some sort of a CE, whether it's at a conference or something local or even the lunch and learned, but some sort of a CE where they're basically told some version of this a really important part of your job as a manager, as a leader, as a supervisor is providing feedback. Like we hear that a lot. We're kind of constantly told to give team members more feedback. And we're even in a stage, I think, in our profession, I see this a lot. I certainly hear this a lot, where I think team members are actively actually asking for it. You know, we hear things like you have done this here at Flourish, where you routinely will ask me or Kelly or Tess for feedback on something, anything, something you're doing, a project, anything like that. So we're seeing a lot more of that. Andy, what if I told you that maybe it's actually less about more feedback? And the issue that we should really be conveying to people is more about the type or the quality of feedback that we give. Now, Andy, I think you know I kind of live to eat food. Okay, so imagine, Andy, I want to ask you this. Imagine I'm about to be marooned on a tropical island somewhere. Okay, so somebody's gonna dump me on some tropical island. It's gonna be a great place to live, but I can never leave the island. And yes, there will, of course, be a reef nearby that I will be snorkeling on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

But I'll never willingly leave the island. I won't have to.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I have reef to eat. Like, I mean, yeah. Okay, so now imagine that you have been put in charge of my food supply. But the catch here, yes, Andy is like very you're rubbing her hands together with joy and excitement for this. But the catch here is that Andy, you can only pick one type of food for me to have an endless supply of. So you get to pick, I'm gonna have an endless supply, okay, you know, whatever, but it's only one type of food. And you really want to pick a food that you know is gonna keep me happy, the kind of food that I'm gonna take a lot of joy in consuming on a regular basis. What kind of food would you pick for me?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

This was the easiest question I've ever had to answer. And my answer is I mean, final answer, ice cream with sprinkles on it.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Ice cream with sprinkles on it. Yes. Andy, you know me quite well, apparently. Uh if I could spend the rest of my life consuming ice cream with sprinkles, I would gladly do it and then go jump into the ocean and look at reef corals and fish. Here's the catch though. What would happen to me, Andy, if all I ate was ice cream with sprinkles on top?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

You wouldn't be snorkeling that reef for very long because your health would deteriorate.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Probably pretty quickly, right? Yeah. Yeah, sure. I'd be happy for a bit, but feeding someone an endless supply of junk food just because they're hungry doesn't keep them healthy and energized. This seems obvious to us, but it's the same with feedback. People don't just need more feedback, they need healthy feedback, nutritious feedback, beneficial, productive feedback. So the question then is what makes feedback nourishing instead of empty calories? So, Andy, my next question to you then when you think back to the veterinary practices and organizations that you've worked in, how much of the feedback you got there from managers, from supervisors, even from peers and colleagues felt genuinely nourishing to you? And how much of that feedback was at best more like the equivalent of kind of like a cheap gas station snack?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Um, I am probably not alone in my experience because when it comes to feedback, I've had a lot of little Debbie's snacky snacks. A lot of the feedback that I have received has been kind of, I don't know, superficial and cheap gas station snacky.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

So not that nourishing, not really helpful and energizing you at work. Okay, so that begs the question for me then. What does empty calorie feedback sound like? So this kind of like little Debbie style feedback, what about it makes it rotten or unhealthy?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

I think for me it it's very, it's very superficial, right? And when I thought about this question, I really did. I thought about like productive feedback, like feedback, like good feedback, like you're doing a good job, and also feedback of, hey, yo, we need to do better. And the common denominator there is that it was extremely hollow, extremely superficial. You know, you would take a bite and it would just crumble out from underneath you. A lot of good job today, or hey, we need to do better. And here's how you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Andy, can you on the flip side of that? So when we think of like feedback that isn't hollow or shallow like that, can you share an example of feedback that you've gotten, like a specific story or specific example of feedback that you got that actually kind of was nutritious and maybe helped you grow in your role that you felt was nourishing?

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah, this is a fun thing to think about, to kind of reflect back on what I've experienced and who I've gotten feedback from and what it kind of looked like. One of the experiences that I had was actually some feedback that I got from a client of ours who was also like a business mentor for us. So back when Mike and I ran our own practice, it was our, you know, we were kind of new at this business owning thing. And oh God, they didn't teach us how to do it in school. So we kind of, you know, didn't do everything right. And so we um started a relationship with one of our clients to also kind of advise us and consult and be a kind of a mentor when it came to business. And he was a great. And I remember one conversation that he had with me, and it was shortly after um coming out and doing some work for them because we were also, you know, their veterinarians. And so we would provide veterinary care for their animal. And um, so there was that kind of really cool component that not only was he a business consultant for us, but he was also a client of ours. And so we got to see it from the client perspective. And his name is Chris. And Chris really sort of pulled me aside and he said, Hey, Andy, I do you have a minute before you go? I would love to talk to you about something. And I said, Yeah, sure. You know, of course we always have time for you. Can I ask what this is about? And he said, Well, it's actually about, you know, the business side of it. It has nothing to do with our dog. Everything's great there, but I just have something that I'd like to share with you. Okay. And he started out by really pointing out something that at the time really took me aback, right? Because I was still a little bit not new, but it was still like new to be having these conversations with people. And I remember him sharing that how did he say it? He said, you know, Andy, your ability to connect with your clients and educate your clients in a way that's really real and down to earth is something that always stands out to me. And lately you've seemed really rushed and distracted in appointments. And I just really wanted to talk to you a little bit more about that because I know it's important to you to support us as your clients. And I've noticed that that just isn't the case lately.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Okay, this is awesome. So there's some elements in here that I hear. First of all, he asked for permission. Is it okay? Do you have a minute? Is it okay if I share something with you? Then he focused on something that he appreciates about you, something you do well, this ability to connect and make, you know, establish these relationships. And that was tied to something that seems important to you and how maybe it's fallen off lately. And that opened up uh I'm assuming opened up the opportunity for a really fruitful conversation.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Oh, absolutely. This was this was early enough in my career that this wasn't a common expectation when it came to feedback, right? I mean, I was much more used to the little Debbie feedbacks than a nutritious feedback like this. And it absolutely created the space for a really great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

That's awesome. I'm super grateful that you had Chris as a client and as a mentor. Uh I've I really come to think of feedback, at least the best forms of feedback, as feedback that nourishes people. And by the way, that applies both to quote positive or constructive feedback and quote negative or constructive feedback, right? I think that either way, the best feedback nourishes people. And a great way to nourish them is to help them understand the best parts of who they are. That's what Chris helped you do and how those best parts contribute to things that matter to you, to them, to each other. I think that when we target our feedback on people's strengths, they use those strengths more and magical things happen. It's like what, you know, Tess often says it's the positive reinforcement thing. It's, you know, you get more of what you reward. And a new study gives us a useful way to think about that through three very connected ideas: strength-based feedback, engagement, and job crafting. Should we dive in?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Oh, I'm excited. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

All right. The paper I want to share today is called Linking Strength Spaced Feedback to Job Crafting, the moderating role of self-efficacy. It was written by uh, I'm gonna try this, Isabeau van Stridonk, Stridonk, something like that. It's V A N space, S-T-R-Y-U-D-O-K. You can read it in the uh article linked in the show notes, and colleagues. Uh, and it was published in the International Journal of Selection and Assessment in 2025. The researchers conducted two time-separated studies. That's actually really important here. Uh, studies that were uh survey-driven studies in Belgium. And yes, that is a tinge of pain in my voice, since it was Belgium who recently knocked my beloved US men's national soccer team out of the World Cup. Thankfully, Spain took care of Belgium in the next round. Take that, Red Devils. Anywho, a bit about the two studies that they did. Study one had just under 250 uh recruitment consultants as participants. And again, these were time-separated studies. So they surveyed them three times at the onset of the study. So that's time zero, three months later, and then 11 months later. And then in study two, they had just under 300 software engineers. Now, this is important because this was two different types of work environments, right? So we had recruitment consultants in the first study and software engineers in the second. And again, this was time separated, but it was much more condensed time. So they surveyed them at the initial onset, time zero, and then at week two and week three. In both of these studies, they measured from the employees' perspective, also important, okay, strength-based supervisor feedback that was measured at time zero. So basically the employees' assessment of how much strength-based uh feedback they're getting from their supervisor. Uh then at the midpoint, so that second point, they measured the employees' work engagement using the Utrecht scale, which is something that we're familiar with because we used that recently in a study uh that we conducted in partnership with VMG. And then the last thing they measured at the final time point was job crafting. Now I'm going to define these three things a little bit more in depth, but first I want to share importantly, the researchers also controlled for the amount of ordinary feedback that employees receive from their supervisors. And that really matters. This was not simply a finding that people who hear more feedback from the boss feel better, do better. The researchers were trying to isolate what, if anything, was really distinctive about strength-based feedback in particular. So they measured the total amount of feedback and then how much of it was strength-based, and then they controlled for that. Of course, as I said, we should probably define some of these variables. So let's do that really quickly. The first one is strength-based feedback. And this means identifying an employee's distinctive qualities, verbally naming them, and appreciating how those qualities contribute to good work, and helping the employee consider how those strengths could be used or developed in the future. Three key elements of what we define as strength-based feedback. It is not generic praise. Okay. It's not saying, hey, great job, like you were talking about, that shallow little Debbie's version. It's not like a simple personality label, like, gosh, Andy, you're so smart. That's not strength-based feedback. It's not telling people they're a rock star. And importantly, it is not about ignoring mistakes or performance concerns. So here's an example. Simple praise mount might sound like something like this, okay? Man, you did a great job with that emergency hit by car today. Okay, that's very simple, shallow kind of surface level feedback. Strength-based feedback would maybe sound something more like this. Wow, Andy, you did a great job with that emergency today. Specifically, when things got a little chaotic, you really helped slow everyone down. You clarified the immediate priorities and you helped the team coordinate. You have this like real ability to create order under pressure. Andy, where else do you think that might be better use in this practice? That's strength-based feedback. Uh work engagement, that's the other thing they measured. Uh for this study, this was based on the simple three-item version of the U-trect work engagement scale, which measures workplace vigor. So this is like just the general sense of energy at work, dedication. So this is the level of involvement in work tasks, and then absorption, which is how focused and happy people are in their work day to day. This is not simply job satisfaction. That's really important to uh to convey here. It's the energized experience that one feels or does not feel doing the work. It's what it looks like when someone kind of like seems alive in their work. Okay, that's what work engagement is. And then the last variable that they measured here was that job crafting thing. So let's define that. Generally, job crafting is when a team member actively redesigns their work to fit their personal strengths, their personal goals, their passions, instead of like waiting for someone else to do it, like a boss to come in and change their role or change their daily tasks or change their mindset, which really a boss can't do. They can influence, but they can't really change it. The goal with job crafting is to make work more meaningful and enjoyable for that individual. So it's their active uh intention or behavior to make the job feel more meaningful or enjoyable. It is not secretly rewriting their job description, right? It's not the lab tech constantly in treatment doing treatment activities. Rather, it's a series of often small, proactive adjustments to the existing role that creates a better fit between the person, the work, and the organization's needs. So it's that lab tech thinking differently about how their work in lab is helping the treatment team or asking the treatment team, hey, how did my work here today make a difference for you? Right. Like that's a form of job crafting. Now, this particular study measured two different types of job crafting. The first one is increasing challenge within the job. So that's like finding ways to stretch yourself, or for example, a technician volunteering to redesign the anesthesia recovery process because she sees a meaningful way to improve it, right? But she's never done an SOP before. That's like job crafting to stretch yourself, to add challenge. The second form that they measured is increasing structural job resources. So this is like reshaping aspects of the job so that you can learn more or use your strengths more or gain a stronger sense of autonomy or agency in the work. Okay, so now that we've defined the study, what they did and what they measured, let's look at some of the key findings. What did they discover here? Well, across both of these studies, employees who perceived more strength based feedback from their supervisors also reported. Higher engagement later on. Remember, this is a time bound study. And so they measured the uh the strength-based feedback initially, and then months or weeks later, they measured engagement, and they found that engagement scores were higher later. And furthermore, those that reported higher engagement reported more beneficial job crafting later on as well. So they took more initiative to take that engagement energy and do something productive with it. The effect sizes were moderate here, so they weren't huge, but they weren't small either. They were real, but this wasn't like a miracle supplement that you know an employee can take to cure all ills in the workplace. Rather, think of strength-based feedback as like a healthy, nutrient-dense meal before a demanding shift. On its own, it's not going to determine everything that happens in the following eight to 12 hours, but it does give people more usable energy than, say, a donut, which breaks my heart because I love donuts. All right. So that's kind of the study in a nutshell, the paper in a nutshell. Let's talk about how this matters here. The first thing that really stood out to me from this study, Andy, is that feedback type matters. Strength-based feedback is just simply more energizing for people. Andy, I worry that for many of us, too often, we deliver feedback in one of two ways. We say things like, hey, thanks, good job, regularly throughout the day, and think we've done positive feedback. And then when things go sideways, we pull people aside and we give them critical feedback, which we, of course, we label as constructive, in a formal conversation behind closed doors. Andy, you know what you did wrong today? Here's what I need from you moving forward. Andy, to be honest, how energizing are either of these forms of feedback for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Um, they both they both suck. They are both not energizing at all, right? Because there's, I don't know, there's that lack of genuine engagement with both of those forms of feedback.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

It it's almost to me like you're hungry for helpful feedback. And the like thanks, good job is like, here's a little crumb for you. Like I've I've opened up a bag of chips, and here's one broken chip. I'll keep the rest of the bag for myself. It's not very nourishing. And then on the other side, you're hungry for constructive feedback, helpful feedback. But Andy, I see you're hungry. I'm gonna give you a hammer. Like, I'm gonna pull you aside and just bash you over the head with how you can be better. Neither are super energizing, right? Andy, recall strength-based feedback. Okay, this is feedback in which unique strengths are clearly identified. The person giving you the feedback very clearly states your unique strength and how it contributes to things that matter. And then they encourage you to think about how you can build off that strength and use it more in the future. That's very similar to the conversation you had with Chris, your client. Andy, with that type of feedback, strength-based feedback, would that leave you feeling more or less energized? And what makes it different?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

I think the biggest thing, Josh, that makes it different is that it actually tells me something. It gives me information that I can use in a way that I'm gonna be way more likely to receive it. So it's not just good job. And you leave thinking, well, what was so good about it? What did I do that was great? Like, why, why, why? Like that's great. It shives those details. It's specific with information that I can use. This is why I did a good job. This is why it was impactful. This is why I, as an individual human, why Andy did a good job. And that absolutely would make me feel more energized. And the same goes for the, you know, the flip side of the constructive criticism as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I love that. Um, it's useful. It's just, it's helpful. It's something you can take and you can put to use somewhere else later for the good intentions that you have at work. Yeah. I love that. The second thing that really stood out to me from this study was that engaged employees find ways to make the job fit better for them. And they do that, they seem to do that together. It's incredibly deflating, I think, to feel like a round peg shoved into a square hole at work. And I think that often many veterinary veterinary team members feel this way about their job. They do it because their job depends on the things that are asked of them, but the work ends up depleting them instead of kind of energizing them. I think that when veterinary team members feel the ability to job craft, what they end up doing is they create opportunities to stretch themselves, to learn more, to take initiative, to improve how the work is structured so that they can feel better doing it, and then they end up doing the work better. This study suggests that strength-based feedback is one clear way that supervisors can help team members do more of that. It leads to more engagement, and then more engaged team members convert that energy, those calories that they get from the strength-based feedback into intentional movement. So they're more likely to do something proactive with that energy. Andy, can you think of a time that you actually reshaped some aspect of your role in any job because it helped you feel more excited about the contribution you can make? In other words, have you ever engaged in one of these forms of job crafting?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Oh, I absolutely have. And I'm like giggling over here because the one that came to mind for me is something that I've done at Flourish, where I have gotten really excited about some of the graphic design and social media components and like crafting a post and putting together a reel and making it fun and making sure that we've got all the little Persies. And like I get really excited about that. That is definitely not, I don't know, something that's probably in my job description, but it's something that I get really excited about. And because I'm able to do that and sort of focus some of my energy on that and and and get excited about that, it absolutely contributes to how I show up for the team at Flourish, how I show up for the veterinary community at large, how excited I get about the contribution that I'm making at work. Like, heck yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

So you you found a way to make one part of your role here at Flourish your own on your own, and that doing so and having the capacity to craft your work in that way has given you further energy for the other parts of your job.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I freaking love that. That makes me very happy to hear. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. Another big takeaway here from this study is that more feedback isn't actually the story here. It's really about better feedback, right? The researchers controlled for ordinary supervisor feedback, like the total amount of just all kinds of feedback that they got. And they found that it really wasn't simply about receiving more feedback in general. So, some of those lessons that we feel like we hear often in those, you know, lecture halls and in those webinars of give people more feedback. That's not really the lesson to be taking from this. Just like eating more food doesn't automatically produce better health. Getting more feedback doesn't automatically produce better engagement. The content of the feedback really matters. In other words, feedback frequency only tells us that the pot is full of food, that, okay, I'm cooking something here. It doesn't actually tell us about its nutritional quality. An all-you-can-eat buffet of low quality feedback is still low quality feedback. So we've got to make sure that we're we're delivering high-quality feedback and strength-based feedback seems to be a form of high quality feedback. And then the last big takeaway for me was how an employee feels about themselves actually seems to matter. Now, this this was a surprising finding in the study, and it really fascinated the heck out of me. Basically, what the researchers found was that employees who already strongly believed in their abilities and strengths, they didn't experience a significant engagement boost from the strength-based feedback. In other words, employees who had a high level of self-efficacy, they're very confident in what they can do in their role already. They they kind of have a self-awareness about their strengths and qualities. When they're given this strength-based feedback, it doesn't seem to create a big engagement boost. Employees who lacked in self-efficacy, though, when they were given strength-based feedback, saw a massive boost in engagement. Now, the study can't tell us why that's the case. But Andy, I have a theory. I wonder if maybe the confident employees didn't benefit from the strength-based feedback because the supervisors were telling them something they already knew, right? So, like, for example, Andy, I think one thing that you know very well is that you're friggin' hilarious. Like you have just an incredible and impeccable natural sense of humor. And I can see you smiling when you hear that because it's something you know about yourself, right? So if I tell you that your sense of humor really added levity to our last team meeting, per se, and you did it at just the time that we needed it, you're you're gonna appreciate that. Like you're gonna feel good about being seen and somebody noticing a special quality you have, but you already know that you're pretty hilarious, right? So it may not add much to the engagement uh bucket. Maybe high efficacy confident team members can actually still benefit from strength-based feedback when it adds something new to their self-understanding or sense of identity. So, for example, if I'm able to identify something that you brought to a team meeting recently that surprised you, that wasn't a strength that you were fully aware of or that you had been actively leveraging. Maybe if I verbalize that strength, if I see that and verbalize it, maybe even though you're already a confident team member, maybe that would actually add to your sense of engagement as if you were a quote, low self-efficacy team member. So that's my theory, Andy. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 32:45

This is this was a fascinating finding. I'm with you. It's very surprising. I was surprised, actually, to hear that the study found that high confident employees didn't necessarily get a boost from the strengths-based feedback. And I I think that you're onto something when you suggest that these high confident team members can still benefit when we find something new to highlight or something additional to highlight. I think that is, I think you're onto something there. I am gonna push back on you though, on the first comment that you made about, you know, being told something that you quote unquote already know. Because I will say, for fear of sounding a little bit, you know, I don't know, yes, I'm a funny person. I I do know that. I try, it's fun for me. And I my self-efficacy goes up when it is pointed out to me, right? So when I'm successful at doing a thing that I think I'm probably already kind of good at, you know, I am human. And so I do question that. Like, oh no, am I am I really funny, or do I just think I'm really funny? Because those are two totally different things. That validation that comes with, yeah, you are pretty funny. And yeah, it did support us at a time in our team meeting when we really needed that. That is going to build me up in a way that allows me to be even more confident moving forward. And it's helpful for me. I think that the idea of balancing that is really important here, right? And I think that it would be helpful for me. And it is helpful for me when you share feedback like that because you share it when it matters. You share it in a genuine way. It's not like you say it every single time, right? You're very specific about what it was and how it contributed and why it was helpful. And it's not like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The only thing Josh ever notices about me is that I'm funny. That's not the case. You notice a bunch of other things. You give me feedback that is strengths based about a variety of strengths that I have. You don't just put the blinders on and only talk about being funny and I'm funny and funny, funny, funny, to the point that I'm like, does he even know? Does he even know who I am as a person? Or does he just like focus on the funny thing? And I think that's where that's where the nuance is in kind of what your takeaway is, is that it's it's a yes and, yes, and when it's used in balance, yes, and when it's genuine, yes, and when it's specific. And it's not every single time I get feedback, it's something about me being funny, that there is the the potential for it to contribute to self-efficacy.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Y'all, by the way, Andy is like objectively freaking hilarious, especially with her GIF usage in Slack, uh, which constantly surprises me. And I don't know how many times a day I literally laugh out loud when I see gifts pop up in Slack, which is the boost that I need. Uh, so there's a couple things that I think are worth reiterating in what you're sharing here, Andy, um, that's really important for our listeners to hear. The first thing is that just because the research shows that high effic high efficacy employees do not see a significant boost to engagement later on when they get strength-based feedback, does not mean that strength-based feedback is not beneficial for high efficacy employees. It is. Andy just proved that to you. So it doesn't mean you stop giving them feedback, and it certainly doesn't mean that you should just forget about giving them strength-based feedback. You should. It helps them feel seen, it helps them feel validated, it adds to their sense of wanting to continue using those strengths. The other thing is that all things in balance. And so look for the real strengths. Don't just focus on one. No human being is only one singular strength. Every human being brings this beautiful, complex, sometimes messy, like tapestry of strengths. And maybe we can gamify this as supervisors and start looking for what are all those strengths and how can I notice them and how can I share those with Andy. Now, I am I am going to reiterate something from the actual literature because I think it's important for us to understand this. The concept of engagement is what was measured here. So engagement, think of engagement as just like an overall sense of energy in and about work, right? And what the study said was that with high efficacy employees, employees who are aware of those strengths and confident in those strengths, when they are provided strength-based feedback at time zero, three months later, one week later, whatever it is, when we measure engagement, we don't see a significant increase in engagement for that person. So what that might be saying is like for somebody like Andy, who's already engaged in their work, when I provide her strength-based feedback about it, a strength that she's already aware of, it feels good to her. She likes it. It gives her an immediate boost. Sometime later, if I measured her engagement, it's probably going to be very similar to her engagement before I gave the feedback. That's basically what the data is saying. Uh, so I think that's important to clarify. Okay, so now that we've had this discussion about these takeaways in these studies, how do we turn this stuff into something useful in an actual veterinary workplace? Well, the good news is this doesn't actually require a new performance management platform. It doesn't require a three-day leadership retreat, and it certainly doesn't require a color-coded spreadsheet with 47 very pretty tabs attached to it. It really just starts with changing the nutritional quality of the feedback we're already giving. All of us are already giving feedback, so we just got to think a little bit more intentionally about it. So here are a few things that veterinary teams can try. Number one, upgrade praise into strength-based feedback. Most of us are actually really good at doing things like great job, thanks for your help. Gosh, you're so awesome with clients. Those things are nice. Keep saying them. Absolutely keep saying them. Those things, though, they're more like a quick handful of chips than a nutrient-dense meal. So they might make someone feel good for a moment, but they don't give the person very much useful information. Remember, Andy spoke about that earlier. Is that doesn't provide useful information about what they actually did well or what they should continue repeating. So high quality strength-based feedback is going to have those four key ingredients. Number one, it's going to clearly name and verbalize the strength. Number two, it's going to provide evidence of the strength and use. Three, it's going to explain the impact. And then four, it's going to explore future use. So an example might be something like this. Andy, you have such an incredible way of helping me get unstuck from super serious mode. By the way, I have a t-shirt that I wore at soccer last night. It's got a picture of a goose with a tie on it and says, Today I am a serious goose. Sometimes I really am, though. Sometimes I get stuck in that. You know, like yesterday, Andy, I was working on this one pager for our PCOM thing and battling with the color scheme, and you posted this absolutely hilarious Tommy Boy GIF in Slack, which then sent us on a back and forth Tommy Boy GIF tirade. Uh, it made me literally laugh out loud, and I could feel my entire body and mind relax just when I needed it. Andy, how do you think that natural sense of humor could be helpful in, say, like our team meetings, right? So that's strength-based feedback. That feedback doesn't just say, gosh, you're so good at that. It tells somebody like Andy what they're good at, how you know they're good at it, why it matters, and what could come next from it. And the cool part is everyone on the team can do this. You don't need a management title to help another human recognize a strength. Andy, 30 seconds or less. What do you think makes strength-based feedback like that feel believable instead of like fluffy or performative?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

That it's genuine, that it's specific, and that it's used in balance.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Love it. Totally agree. The second thing that I think people can take away from the study to renovate their cultures in their hospital is to help someone see their strengths that they don't yet see in themselves. Now, this might be especially important for people with lower self-efficacy, but we could argue it could also be really important for higher uh self-efficacy folks as well. Sometimes a veterinary professional performs really well, but explains the success away. Oh, I just got lucky. Well, I was just doing my job. Oh, anyone could have done that. Meanwhile, the people around them are thinking, no, actually, not everyone could have done that the way that you uniquely did it. So rather than simply repeating the strengths the employee already knows about, maybe try helping them discover one that they're overlooking. Here's a little five-step approach to doing that. Ask, listen, spot, prove, and expand. So first ask, hey, what do you think you contribute when you're at your best? Like that's one way to start that. Then listen for the strengths that they already recognize. Try and pay attention to what are the strengths they're sharing that maybe they already see. Next, spot an important strength that they didn't mention. So think about a strength that maybe they do contribute that they didn't say out loud. Then prove it with a specific example of how you saw that strength in action, and then finally expand it by asking where else that strength could be useful. Here's what the whole thing might sound like, all right. Hey, you know, you mentioned clinical judgment and client communication as strengths that you have. Something you didn't mention is your ability to study the team when things become really kind of crazy. Yesterday, when that emergency arrived, you really slowed everybody down. You clarified priorities, you kept people from working at cross purposes. I wonder where else we could make better use of that ability here. For someone who lacks confidence, this may be more than encouragement, right? It might be new evidence about who they are and what they're capable of doing. And for very confident employees, maybe that feedback becomes more useful when it helps them see something new that they didn't see in themselves yet, rather than simply confirming what they already know.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

This would be such a cool conversation for um like a one-to-one, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I tell you. Love that idea. Thirdly, a healthy diet isn't just dessert. As much as I hate saying that out loud, using strength-based feedback to help with performance really helps too. So use it in performance feedback as well. Strength-based feedback does not mean ignoring mistakes, okay? It doesn't mean ignoring performance concerns, harmful behavior, missed expectations. Patients, clients, and coworkers still very much depend on clear standards and accountability to those standards. So the goal is not to stop giving corrective feedback. The goal is to make sure that people aren't living on a steady diet of information about what is wrong with them and that they're getting useful feedback when we're having those corrective or constructive conversations. So even when a performance problem exists, strengths can, and I would argue should be a part of that conversation. For example, maybe it would sound something like this: you know, Andy, your attention to detail is a real asset in patient care. Right now, though, that strength isn't consistently showing up in your medical records. Let's figure out what is getting in the way, and maybe we can build a system that helps you bring that same precision to your documentation. This is almost exactly what your client Chris provided for you, right? Here is a strength you have. Here is where it's falling short. Let's talk about closing that gap. That is a really helpful constructive feedback kind of conversation. So we are still naming the gap. We're talking about pro. Performance issues. We're still holding people to a standard, but instead of treating the employee like a collection of deficits, we're helping them use an existing capability to improve. That's really at the heart of strength-based feedback. It isn't about pretending that everyone is perfect. It isn't about, you know, everybody gets a participation trophy and we just shower praise on everyone. It's about helping people clearly understand what is strong in them and why those strengths matter and how they can bring more of those strengths into their work and use those strengths to improve their performance moving forward. Andy, this study, I gotta tell you, it really helped me rethink how I deliver feedback. What's the saying? The the dose makes the poison, right? Feedback is not just about dosage, it's about the type of nutrient that we're dosing. What is the bottle we're pulling off the shelf and pulling up into the uh syringe, right? If all we give is corrective feedback, then we are likely to poison engagement. And if all we give is bland, shallow surface level praise, we're likely dosing an engagement placebo. So the goal here isn't to fix people or just make them feel good. The goal is to create enough energy, enough confidence, and enough awareness of strengths that matter to help people improve how the work gets done. Not just for the outcomes, but for the human being actually doing the work. Now I think we all know someone who is just bursting with strengths worth celebrating. And maybe Andy, you can share who that someone is.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

So many strengths. So so hard to uh narrow it down to just one headline for today because it literally there were so many, and there've been a lot recently, which I'm like, oh, there's just been an uptick in in Florida Man headlines lately. So the one I chose for us today, um I I don't I don't have words, and it is fantastic. So I'm gonna share this with you. This happened uh just a couple of weeks ago, so very recently. Naked Florida Man, because we got to start with that, right? So often. Naked Florida Man.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

That could just be the headline.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Right, right, right. But that would be, I mean, that would that again, that's not specific enough, Josh. I can't, I don't know what to do with that because it's so common, it's very generic.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Very surface level. Go on, naked Florida man.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Naked Florida man accused of robbing a meat market, only wearing a mask, left behind a trail of clothes. And the picture, the the mugshot is a man who's pretty proud of his accomplishments.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

You're gonna share the link to this mugshot in the yeah, okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Of course, because that is that's what made me start laughing hysterically. The headline is hilarious, right? Naked Florida man robs a meat market wearing only a mask, but then the look on his face on his mugshot, okay. Yep. He is a um confident individual.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

He's so strength-based feedback may not increase his engagement for future uh um larceny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yes, yes, according to the data, yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

That is absolutely perfect, and I cannot wait to look at that one. Thank you for bringing that. Uh great to have you all join us uh today for this session of the Veterinary Culture Lab. Um, we're we're super excited to have you all listening. Uh, we will, of course, share all the resources uh in today's show notes, the link to the paper, this delightful mug shot that Andy's talking about. And hey, you know what? If you're feeling like you want to support um one of these core needs for myself or Andy, you want to give us some strength-based feedback, then why don't you go ahead and subscribe or share or comment. Tell us what you think of these episodes, what you're getting out of them, uh, what's been beneficial for you, and how we can continue to use hopefully our strengths of delivering useful content to you in the future. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks, friends. Uh, we can't wait to see you on the next episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab. Be well.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Bye, everyone. Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, powered by the science of workplace well-being, and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting. If today's episode sparked an idea, made you smile, or got you thinking, hey, I should totally try that. Let us know. What do you think? Be sure to subscribe, share, and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible, and you don't have to build it alone.