SPEAKER_08 0:04

Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application. I'm Andy Davison.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm Josh Weisman. Together we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team. One episode at a time.

SPEAKER_08 0:23

This is not your typical podcast conversation because we're recording from Zhabwe, surrounded by wildlife, welcoming vocals, and big open skies. And a group of veterinary professionals exploring what it really needs to thrive. In this special episode, you're not just going to hear from us, you're going to hear from the people living this experience as we explore what the research says about emotional intelligence, connection, and time spent outdoors. This is a different kind of episode for us. And trust me, this is one that you're going to want to both hear and see. Well, hello everybody. I am pretty darn excited for this particular episode of the Veterinary Culture Lab. Because typically when you hear my voice, you hear Josh's voice pipe in pretty quickly after me. But that's not gonna be the case this time. Because I have a very special episode in store for you, and I have a very special co-host with me that you're actually getting to see. Because for those of you that are watching on YouTube, right? Yeah, you're getting to see us. And if you're not watching on YouTube, if you go to YouTube, you'll get to see everything that goes along with this special episode. Now, I obviously am not in my usual recording spot. I'm not even in the same hemisphere. Right now, I am in Zimbabwe, and I'm recording this episode during the week of Thrive. Thrive is a veterinary well-being retreat, and it is hosted by the worldwide vets team that you're gonna hear all about because they are an incredible organization doing awesome good work. But first, I want to introduce my co-host because I have brought the amazing and incredible Danny Herbst. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be part of the Veterinary Lab. Right? Flourish Veterinary Lab. Here I am. I know. Right?

SPEAKER_08 2:24

She's on the podcast. She's doing it. This is a big deal. We have international hosts now. I know, I know. And we've had an absolute blast together. So Danny is a friend of mine. She's also a colleague. You're gonna hear about all of the awesome things that she does here in just a few minutes. But like I said, we are coming at you from Zimbabwe. And on the other side of the camera is a beautiful scene of what?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

The savannah? Is that what we call it? The savannah, the waterhole. Okay. Really big umbrella acacia trees. We may get interrupted by a herd of elephants and be known to happen. I mean, oh no, right?

SPEAKER_08 3:01

Oh no. If that happens, don't worry. We'll definitely flip the camera for you all to see that because we are nowhere near as cool as an entire herd of elephants. But we spent our time this week, um, gosh, just exploring Africa, exploring ourselves and out on the savannah. That's the word now. Um experiencing all of the things that you can see out on game drives. And it's been absolutely incredible. Let's see. So far this week, we've seen baboons, we've seen elephants, um, we've seen giraffes, we've seen zebra, yeah, which we like to refer to as disco donkeys.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Yeah, just a fun little fact from Zim. Disco donkeys, hashtag disco donkeys.

SPEAKER_08 3:41

Yep, yep, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

What else have we seen that's been really cool? Bushbuck, Kudu, Impala. We saw Addie and I on our own little adventure, and we've seen a pride of lions, Rhone Antelope, which if you don't know what they are, go and have a look, and Sable, which are absolutely stunning. It's all such a gift.

SPEAKER_08 3:59

And um every time you come around the corner and there's something new greeting you, it is breathtaking. Absolutely breathtaking. Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I'm so happy that I got to share it with you. So, Danny, as you know at Flourish, we promote human flourishing within the veterinary community, within ourselves, within our hearts, within our minds. And thriving is something that I feel like we can all relate to in our life and in work. And considering, Danny, that you grew up here in Zimbabwe, one of the many, many things that is so special to me about calling you a friend and a colleague is experiencing and learning about your culture and the way that people connect with one another, the way that people connect with themselves and with the land. And so, from your perspective, I would love to hear more about how Zimbabwean culture thinks about thriving and about well-being. And how do you promote and support that?

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. I mean, obviously, I can only speak from my personal experience. Um, but growing up in Zimbabwe, I think for anybody who hasn't visited Zimbabwe, it's really important to note that, and I may be a little biased, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Zimbabweans are very warm, friendly, empathetic people. Um, when they ask you how you're doing, it's because they genuinely want to know. They're not just doing it to be polite. Um, but I think that the mental health space is something that's very interesting within the country because I don't think that it's very widely spoken about. I think that people can see that you're struggling with something and they will ask you what's what's going on, but words like anxiety, burnout, depression, anything like that is not very openly talked about. It's sort of um I think that people try to put on a mask and be okay because they don't want to burden people with their problems. And I don't think that there's been a lot of space where people can come out and chat about that openly. Yeah. So yeah, I think that it is something that is more on the rise. I think that as it is on the rise globally, I think that a lot more conversations are opening worldwide. I think it is slowly coming in and slowly coming into schools and different professional settings, but it's still not something that is openly discussed or um people don't take time out of their everyday lives to sort of address those issues and address, you know, their struggles, which is really sad. Yeah. But having grown up um in a space where it's something that isn't very, very widely spoken about, um, I don't think that there's a lot of support for people out there. So we can try our best to support one another. And I've been really lucky in my family and with my friends and in my own community that they are very open and welcoming. And so you can go to them with these issues, or if you're struggling with something, but there isn't a lot of professional help available. So of course we can support each other as best we can, but there are times where we really need, you know, the support of somebody within the industry who can give you the tools to navigate these issues that you might encounter in your life, or these struggles that you might encounter in your life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 7:09

Yeah. So it sounds like the struggles are still there, right? The challenges are still there. As humans, we are inevitably going to, I don't know, face adversity.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 7:22

And I can relate, right? Like I'm sure our listeners can relate. The veterinary industry can relate when you say that sometimes it's not something that is talked about very often. Yeah. And sometimes it's not something that comes to the forefront and that the tools and the skills are um not as robust as they could be. Do I have that right?

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Yes, yes, 100%. And I think there's also, you know, a little bit of fear. And I'm not saying, like, hey, I need help. Hey, I'm struggling. I I need support. I need, you know, a lot of um, and this is also African culture coming into it because we're taught to be very strong. And you put on a happy face and you move on, and you know, no issues too big. But the reality is that we all have times in our lives where we struggle and we feel overwhelmed and we need support. And it's okay to be like, hey, this is how I'm feeling. Like, what can I, what can I do about it? Like, how can we support each other?

SPEAKER_08 8:13

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful, right? That recognition of we do need support and thinking more about how you can support one another. Yes, yes. I'm so glad that you have your community and that your community has you. And I'm so glad that your community has your voice.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Oh, thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 8:31

Because I really think you speaking out about it starts that conversation. Yeah. So just scream, scream louder because we're all humans and we all, we all need help. Right? We do.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Okay, we do. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 8:43

That's some really fascinating insight. And I can tell that it's a bit personal.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 8:48

So thank you for sharing that. That really means a lot.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Thank you for letting me share it.

SPEAKER_08 8:52

Yeah, absolutely. So thinking more about you, right? You personally considering the good work that you do with Worldwide Vets and for the Thrive Wellbeing event, I would love to hear maybe kind of a little bit about what drew you to this work. What fills your cup? What promotes your purpose when it comes to the work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Yeah, yeah. So um I think I've been very blessed having grown up in Zimbabwe. I mean, Annie can attest to the view that we're currently looking at is sort of like my family's backyard. Um I think that I was also really privileged to grow up in a family that appreciates the outdoors, appreciates nature. So every, every sort of chance that we got, we would be out in the bush, we would be out in the national park, we'd be out fishing. Um, so I've sort of grown up with this love for wildlife instilled in me, like generationally, which is really, really just a blessing. Because I think that a lot of people take it for granted, especially when you live here and it's on your, it's on your doorstep. You don't take take time to sit back and appreciate and be like, wow, this is like, this is my life. Um but yeah, so I think that that sort of instilled my um my love of wildlife and my love of the outdoors. Um, I wasn't actually gonna go into this industry at all, but I think that life has a way of sort of diverting you onto the right path. So my background professionally is actually in design and illustration. I graduated during COVID. I was gonna say unfortunately, but I actually think it's quite fortunate. There you go. See the strengths of that. And I had the opportunity to work at a private game reserve, and that is sort of where my love for conservation, my love for communities, because we had work with neighboring communities, it sort of fired that up in my heart and fired that up in my belly. And I came to realize that a lot of the communities in these areas and within this country actually don't have um access, first of all, to go and see these wildlife areas. They they don't they lack education about it. I mean, they they live in Zimbabwe and some of them can't tell you what a lion looks like, or they can't name the different animals, or um, yeah, they just haven't been given any opportunity to explore the world around them. And as I was working in this space, I also started learning more about conservation and conservation efforts. So that's where it all sort of sort of stirred up. At the time, the place that I was working for actually hosted some of Worldwide Vet's volunteers. And once I decided that it was time to make a change, time to branch out, I reached out to my wonderful boss, Gemma Campling, who I'm gonna give a little shout-out to. An absolute inspiration, and she is wonderful to work for. And I'm not just saying that because I'm employed by her, and you can attest to that. Yeah, she can vouch for her.

SPEAKER_08 11:39

Gemma is an amazing human.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Um, yeah, so I reached out to Gemma just to let her know that I'm looking for a change. Um, it was lovely working with her, and she was like, Oh, are you still looking for something? And so I got involved with Worldwide Vets, and I am so glad that I did because before it was kind of this fueling of my love for wildlife. But joining Worldwide Vets has really given a purpose because everything that we do feeds back into conservation, animal welfare, education, community engagement, um, and it's been incredibly rewarding. And I think that having worked for them, I've only grown my passion for wildlife, for animals, and for people, because I'm a huge people person. If any of you have been on my volunteer programs or at Thrive, you will know that I do not stop talking because I just love getting to know you. I love learning your own experience, I love sharing my own experience and culture. So yeah, yeah, that's how I got into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 12:40

I love how chatty you are. Because as many of our listeners know, I'm equally as chatty. So you can imagine how much fun we have when we get together on these things. And we just giggle and laugh and talk the whole time, and it is spectacular. So, given your experience and the things that really drive you and fill your cup, it makes all the sense in the world to me that you shine in your role with Worldwide Vets.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 13:04

And I'm familiar with the amazing work that you and Gemma and the Worldwide Vets team do every day. But I would love for you to share a little bit more about what that looks like for Worldwide Vets as an entire organization.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah, I'd love to. So basically, Worldwide Vets is a nonprofit. We're registered in the UK as a nonprofit, and we have charity status in the US. And we have a pretty simple goal. So our goal is to sustainably support animal well-being and to provide veterinary care as well as veterinary education globally. So we work in over 10 countries across five continents. And the way that we try to do this is we provide veterinary medical support in areas that are in need. We source and distribute medications globally to areas in need. And then we also provide veterinary medical care as well as offering our volunteering programs, and these are held in a mixture of different settings. So we support various conservation efforts, various vet clinics, sanctuaries, various causes if there's been any natural disasters. So it is quite widespread, but those are the main four areas that we try to focus in. So the animal welfare, veterinary medicine, veterinary education, and then volunteering and support network. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 14:22

Those are four pillars that are so impactful. And four pillars of things that we could absolutely spend the whole rest of the episode on it. Yeah. And we have some other cool things to talk about. So I'm going to encourage you all to check out the show notes because I will absolutely link over to Worldwide Vets where you can learn more about their projects and some of the different causes that they're involved with and all four of those pillars. But I gotta say, I'm really pretty excited that you're here with me for this particular conversation because this week has been absolutely remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 14:55

And for those of you that don't know, Danny is the project coordinator and host for their Thrive event. And as the person that makes it all happen, Danny, would you be so kind as to tell us a little bit more about this particular amazing experience?

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, so Thrive. Thrive is something that I am very proud to be a part of. I feel very privileged that Gemma brought me in because it is her, it's her brainchild. But I'm, if anybody knows me, I'm the girl who likes to organize things and get things done. The Thrive Mental Health and Professional Development Course came about because we sort of realized that there was a real lack of support for veterinary professionals within the mental health space. Um, data is showing that mental health struggles are on the rise within the profession. And as we started to research just support materials, retreats, just opportunities to workshop and gain skills and tools. I don't want to say a cure because there's not going to be a cure. But a way to equip these professionals to better handle these situations is is really not there. There's not much of an offering. Of course, there are one or two, but the the offering is so small that we've we saw it as an opportunity to create something spectacular, which I I think that we're doing, and I think that we are improving each and every year as we learn more about our delegates, as we learn more from our lecturers. So that's kind of where Thrive was born from. The choice to do it in a location like this, I mean, I shouldn't have to explain why we're doing it right where lectures can be interrupted by elephants, or you can cruise down the Zambezi River looking at hippos. But for anybody who hasn't visited Africa, I think that it's a very special place where you can sort of lose yourself and you can put things into perspective. Um, I think that with the rush of busy city life, busy work life, the stresses of home, the stresses of family and friends and other colleagues around you can really sort of muddle things up when you're trying to work through your struggles. And correct me if I'm wrong, this is my own perspective. But I think that sort of taking the time out to remove yourself from that sort of situation, plunk yourself in the middle of the bush where you don't get cell service. Yep. Your wake-up call every morning is baboons having a domestic outside your tent. Every morning, 5:30.

SPEAKER_05 17:29

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Going to sleep with the sound of rustling leaves and nothing else. There's no noise from traffic. You might hear some helicopters overhead in Victoria Falls, but that's okay. Um, I think that that's really important and it's really grounding because it forces you to take a step back and look at the big picture. So we chose the location of Victoria Falls. Um, we are looking at playing around with a few other locations. That being said, stay tuned. Um, but yeah, we've we saw it as an opportunity to really bring in support for those within the veterinary community. We have Andy as our lecturer, and if I may take this opportunity to say that she's been absolutely phenomenal. Um, so Andy hosts a half of the week, and then we have an Enneogram specialist named Christine. So I think that the two components go together really well, and I think that overall for a week-long course, we've created something that's really holistic and really unique in what it offers.

SPEAKER_08 18:26

Yeah. You said something earlier that stood out to me, right? You were saying that you were hoping to create a spectacular experience where delegates that come halfway around the world can really disconnect and be quiet for a minute, which is something that always stands out to me. I am thrilled to be a part of this amazing event. I am beyond honored to have been welcomed into this family and to be a part of this because that is exactly what happens. It is quiet. You hear the leaves rustling, you look up, and there's elephants right there in the background of lectures. And there's no, this is silly, but there's no Wi-Fi. Yeah. And it's insane how effective that is and how peaceful and how quiet that is. The other thing that always stands out to me about Thrive is the fact that it is a week-long course. It's so much more than just a lecture at a hotel in a big city that, you know, Mickey Mouse also lives in. It is an experience all in itself, and you're able to do it as one big experience. So you come for that week where you're able to really connect with the people that you're here with, the other delegates, the other professionals. You're able to really process the information in a way that's helpful and effective. You can process that in your own way, whether that's, I don't know, pondering it over coffee on the deck. Maybe you're out on a game drive and you happen to, you know, come across a beautiful acacia tree or a whole herd of giraffes with their babies that are the cutest things in the world. And you just realize how all of that lines up with some of the things and the conversations that you had earlier in sessions. And that is an experience that I have yet to find anywhere else. Yeah. And those always stand out to me as far as how impactful and how powerful this particular experience is, especially because it's surrounded by well-being, well, professional development, resilience, communication type of content and skills. So that's a that's a big one. Yeah. That's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

And I I think, sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_08 20:40

No, please interrupt away.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

But I think taking the full week out is also something that's really incredibly um intentional. It's an intentional breakaway from your everyday life. It's not just going and sitting in, and I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but this is quote unquote from the delegates. You're not going to sit in a stinky lecture room. You're gonna be floating down the Zambezi and you're gonna have that time to connect with your peers and not just listen to somebody speak at you. Yeah. We're gonna workshop it and talk through these things that we're we're all experiencing. Um, but taking that intentional week away, I think, is really what differentiates it from going to an afternoon seminar. It's an investment of your time, it's an investment of your your finances, obviously. And it's an it's an investment in yourself. There it is. Yep.

SPEAKER_08 21:27

There it is. Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more, Danny. Danny, I love hearing the story of Thrive and the intent and the power and the heart that went into creating that. And the fact that all of those things shine so beautifully in the execution. I've been privileged enough to be a part of this event for three years now.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Three years. We loved having you every single year. Well, you're sweet. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 21:54

It's a highlight of my year. And every year is meaningful and powerful and impactful. And every year it stands out to me how foundational an experience like this could be. So when I found this particular research article, I got really, really excited. Because a lot of what this research finds is confirmed in the experiences and the intentionality behind Thrive. And so that's actually what we're going to talk about. So, Danny, if you're ready, let's go ahead and dig into the science for a minute. Because this episode is completely inspired by a really interesting piece of research that looks at emotional intelligence in early career veterinarians. Now, emotional intelligence is one of those phrases that people hear a lot, but it's really worth slowing down and defining what we actually mean. At its core, emotional intelligence refers to our ability to recognize, understand, and manage emotions, both our emotions and the emotions of other people. It includes things like emotional awareness, self-regulation, empathy, social connection, and the ability to navigate relationships effectively. And in veterinary medicine, we know those skills show up everywhere. They show up when we're supporting a grieving client, navigating tension within a team, communicating about a difficult medical decision, or simply managing the emotional weight that comes with caring deeply about animals and the people who love them. So, emotional intelligence, it's not just a nice skill to have or even a good skill for leaders. It's actually a core professional skill in veterinary medicine. And the paper that we're talking about today is focused on emotional intelligence. And it's titled Improved Mental Health, Social Support, and Time Outdoors are associated with a higher emotional intelligence in early career veterinarians, a longitudinal study. The authors of this paper are Catherine R. Young and her colleagues. And we will absolutely include the full citation and a link to the paper, as usual, in the show notes. Now, Catherine Young and her clan of researchers, they had a question. They got really interested because they really wanted to know how does emotional intelligence develop during early years of veterinary practice? Because there's a pretty common assumption that in many professions, emotional intelligence, it just sort of naturally improves with experience. I mean, it kind of makes sense, right? You see more cases, you deal with more people, therefore you get better at navigating emotional situations. But nobody's really looked that closely at whether that assumption is actually true for veterinarians. So to explore this question, the team of researchers conducted what is called a longitudinal study, which means they followed the same group of people over time. They recruited veterinariates and measured their emotional intelligence using a validated assessment tool. The tool evaluates several different components of emotional intelligence, including well-being, self-control, emotional awareness, and sociability. Participants completed the emotional intelligence assessment multiple times during their first two years of practice, which allowed the researchers to see whether emotional intelligence changed over time. The researchers also gathered information about other factors that might influence emotional intelligence, including mental health, social support, and lifestyle factors like how much time they spent outside. Now, their first major finding is where things get really interesting. Because these researchers they found that early career veterinarians, they actually scored slightly lower than the general population in certain areas of emotional intelligence. I know that was fascinating, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Very fascinating.

SPEAKER_08 26:06

And the biggest difference appeared in a dimension that they called sociability. Now, sociability in this context is not about being extroverted or introverted. It refers to things like navigating social interactions, influencing emotional tone in conversations, and managing relationship dynamics, which, if you think about it, are some of the most complex parts of veterinary practice. The human components, right? So that finding alone is interesting because it suggests that early career veterinarians may enter practice with strong clinical training, but have fewer structured opportunities to develop the relational and emotional skills that are essential in this profession. Okay, the second finding was pretty great. And it actually surprised the researchers themselves because they expected the emotional intelligence to increase during the first two years of practice. But that's not what they found. They actually found that the emotional intelligence scores did not significantly improve over time. So, in other words, simply working in veterinary medicine, gaining experience, seeing cases, interacting with clients, it does not automatically strengthen emotional intelligence. Which suggests that emotional intelligence requires intentional development, not just exposure to the professional experience and environment. Now that was pretty interesting, but it actually got even more fascinating because the most important part of the study came when researchers looked at what factors were associated with higher emotional intelligence scores. Three things stood out to them: veterinarians who reported, better mental health, stronger social support, and more time spent outdoors. Right? How relevant. I know. All three of those things tended to have higher emotional intelligence scores. And when you step back and you think about it, it actually kind of makes a ton of sense. Emotional intelligence requires a certain amount of mental capacity. If somebody is exhausted, isolated, emotionally depleted, it becomes much harder to pause, to reflect, and regulate your emotions. But when people have supportive relationships, time to restore their mental health and opportunities to spend time in nature, those emotional capacities become much easier to access. So, Danny, in this moment, when I read this paper, I kind of paused for a second because those three ingredients mental health, social support, and time outdoors, sounds an awful lot like what we have been able to experience at Thrive here this week.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

I have to say, the familiarity is ringing in my ears.

SPEAKER_08 29:00

Right, right. So when you hear that, you hear that you know we're making those intentional efforts, we're setting aside that time. How does it line up with what you'd hoped Thrive would create for the delegates and the people that are a part of it?

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Yeah, I think it's really validating because um obviously we've received feedback from our delegates, and that goes along with what this research is saying. Um I think that being isolated in their in their different clinics um and their different situations, I think that a lot of the delegates who come out are kind of doing it for the CE, but they don't always realize that they're struggling with something until they're on the ground. Um and that's always really interesting. So I think that taking that intentional time out and with the setting, you let your guard down, right? When you're in a setting where you're comfortable, you're being waited on hand and foot by the wonderful staff, being brought delicious lattes by MC. Um, and just cruising through the bush, you kind of start start to relax and you let your guard down and you aren't in this a lot of them are describing as a rat race. They're just trying to get by day day to day. And then when they step back and they start talking about these struggles, and other people start talking about what they're struggling with, a lot of them are like, oh actually, me too. But I've been covering it up. So I think that um yeah, I think that it's validating first of all to get feedback like that from the delegates because I love veterinarians, but a lot of them will come saying, I wasn't sure if this was gonna be any good. I don't know if I believe in cynical veterinarians? No, never I don't know if I believe in you know all this mushy mushy la-di-da stuff, and then coming back at the end of the week and going, that was actually really interesting, and I really enjoyed that. But getting them out of their normal environment, I think, is a key ingredient to that. So I think it's really validating, and the fact that there's research now backing this is just so interesting to me because yeah, yeah, I definitely did a happy dance.

SPEAKER_08 31:21

I have a um a colleague and uh she actually sent me this study. Oh wow, because it's in JAVMA, like it is it is a veterinary study, which is so exciting. Um, shout out to Andy's colleague, right? No kidding, but yeah, that's exactly where I'm going. Because I was so excited when Martha sent this along and I read it and I just like did a happy dance because I thought, first of all, this is an amazing study. Second of all, this screams Thrive. Yeah. And it's just every everything that they noticed that contributed to increased emotional intelligence scores, you can find it Thrive. Yeah. And something else that you said that really stood out to me was kind of that moment throughout the week where we seem to realize that we're all struggling with something. Yeah, it may not be the exact same thing, but it's something. And that ability to sort of breathe and let your guard down and to take advantage of that social support and to get vulnerable, which is really scary. It's a big thing, right? But so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

100%.

SPEAKER_08 32:24

And so that ability to sort of step into that space has been something that's been really kind of powerful for you to to witness.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

Oh yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, observing veterinary professionals and working in the industry that I do, I think that it is such a um, I'm trying to think of the word. I think that because you're so highly qualified, you're held to a certain standard. You're held you're put up on a pedestal. And I feel like a lot of people are firstly too scared to admit that they're struggling, and secondly, maybe feel a little bit alone. Like, why am I the only one like so-and-so is doing so well. We've had colleagues come out together and some of them will be like, I would have never said that you were struggling with that. But how beautiful to know that you're not alone, and there is an entire community. So chances are if you're feeling it, someone else is feeling it too. You can't be the only one feeling it. There's an entire community, and if we can work at just opening those conversations, I feel like that is the first step. And that first step is all we need, right? We we have a saying here in Africa: how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And that's how we're gonna do this. There we go. I love that I promote eating elephants, just side note.

SPEAKER_08 33:41

Side note, update. What is that? Disclaimer. Yeah, disclaimer. Disclaimer. There it is. Disclaimer. Yep. Yeah. But no, I think you're right, you know, just that permission. Yeah. That permission to be human, that permission to admit that you're struggling a little bit, right? Or that permission to admit that you want to talk about it. Because I I I agree. I mean, it's very hard, I think, as humans and as veterinary professionals to get vulnerable. Yes. And this is a wonderfully safe space to do that in, and a very powerful moment when it does happen. Because I I would agree with you that that's always a moment during the week that stands out to me as well when you can see everybody breathe, take a big deep breath, let their guard down, and really start to have some of those deep, meaningful conversations.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Yeah. And it needs time, which is why a week is so intentional. It it can't be a two-day thing and you go back home with your soul cracked open. Yeah, no. No. It takes some time. There's a much harder shell about the soul.

SPEAKER_08 34:44

It takes much longer than two days. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. And that's actually what makes this episode really fun. Because instead of Danny and I continuing to dive into this research, we actually took some time to talk to the people who are living this experience right now. People who have spent the last week outside in the bush in Africa, connecting with one another and boosting the skills required to navigate the emotion, the challenge, and the reward of our profession successfully. So, next, we're gonna hear from some of the Thrive delegates themselves and hear about how their experience over this week connects with what this research is telling us.

SPEAKER_05 35:32

Hello, I'm Sarah. I'm a veterinarian from Canada. Um, and I currently work in a leadership position as well. Awesome.

SPEAKER_08 35:39

Sarah, I'm so glad that you were here with us this week. We've had an absolute blast doing all of the amazing things here at Thrive. And I'd love to ask you a couple questions about this research because it's really pretty fascinating how they found social support being such an important component to emotional intelligence. And I mean, we had a pretty great group here, so I feel like you could speak to the social support component and how that might have contributed to your emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_05 36:10

Yeah, I guess I I think a a lot of times in like vetmed, especially when things get really hard or they get really challenging, um, you can feel quite isolated and there's a lot of you've a lot of self-doubt, especially when you're starting out and you you just don't really know how to get your footing. And when you start to meet people, especially here, one of the coolest things was everybody had such a different background and different experiences, and then also different um points in their career, it allows you to connect with people who you maybe wouldn't have otherwise connected with and kind of realize that we're all in this we all feel the same way in so many different aspects. Um and it's different sources of support that you probably wouldn't have had otherwise and kind of allows you to be a bit more vulnerable. Yeah, I would say. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 37:00

So that space to connect with other people, right? Has validated your experience a bit, and it's given you that safety to feel vulnerable. That's really powerful. Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome, yeah. The other thing that's really neat about this research is um the focus on the well-being skills, right? Because in vetmed, we get all the technical skills, we get all the medical skills. We don't always focus on the well-being skills. But here we've had an entire week to focus on resilience and communication, conflict management, right? Things that we're gonna have to do every day that we don't always focus on. So, what does it meant for you to be able to take that time and focus on those skills?

SPEAKER_05 37:42

It's been important. Um, like for a lot of different reasons, like especially now, like this is my second time being in an official leadership position. Um, and you do not get that kind of training. And I will say, like, this is now my second time being a medical director, and I definitely fumbled through it the first time and made a lot of mistakes, and there's a lot of things I've learned on this trip that I really wish I had known four or five years ago or more. Um, but I think it's it was really important to know a little bit more about myself, understanding how other people think and how other people work, because everyone just assumes everybody thinks and works the same way, um, and we're all incredibly different, even the way we process our emotions, our feelings, our assumptions about the world. Um, and then it just gives us a little bit more, I guess, tools in order to handle different sides of the clinic that are gonna come up, whether it's dealing with your clients that are angry, dealing with interpersonal issues, dealing with a hard day at work, being able to just navigate those situations a lot easier, or maybe not gonna say easier, but just having the tools to get through it in a more structured way versus just fumbling through. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 38:57

I think what I'm hearing you say, Sarah, is that you realize that relationships are really important. Yeah. And this week has given you some skills and some perspective to go back into the world and nurture and connect with those people in your life in a way that's gonna be helpful. Maybe not awesome and positive all the time, but like productive, I think is the word I'm using.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

I already have like a mental list of all the things I'm gonna like implement at my clinic, and then also a few things I'm gonna like take into like my personal life as well, because there's obviously a lot of overlap. Yes, the overlap. The good old overlap. That's great. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_08 39:34

Thanks for sharing that.

unknown 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 39:36

Okay, and here we are with another Thrive Delegate. This one is a credentialed technician, so of course there is a bond already. But do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself, Megan?

SPEAKER_06 39:46

So my name's Megan Sutherland. I have been practicing for the last six years. I'm a registered veterinary technician. Currently I'm practicing in a general practice in it's called April Vets Orangeville in Orangeville, Ontario. Yeah. In Canada. So yeah, it's been it's been great as any practice, but it's been exciting. Oh, that is exciting.

SPEAKER_08 40:05

Well, thanks for coming on and sharing some of your thoughts. I know we've had a really exciting week here at Thrive. Yeah, that's awesome. I would love to hear some of your thoughts about some of this research and how it kind of lines up with some of the things that we've been doing here this week at Thrive. Because you'll recall that this study, it suggests that emotional intelligence, it doesn't automatically develop just by going out and practicing veterinary medicine. It needs to be focused on and it needs to be developed. And here, this week at Thrive, we've had the opportunity to do that. And I'd be curious, do you think that experiences like this, deliberately stepping away from traditional practice, are important when it comes to developing emotional intelligence skills?

SPEAKER_06 40:48

I think I think it's so so so important because when we get into practice, so if you have a new doctor, they've come from all the schooling and then they go straight into practice and they're already exhausted. They don't have time to put in that extra effort to learn these skills or work on them, or really even realize they're maybe in a deficit with them. And like that just kind of creates more conflict, creates these issues with the people they work with, and then it just kind of snowballs from there. Yeah. So taking the time to deliberately take yourself out of practice and like have a moment to relax, to be surrounded by like these like-minded individuals is so wonderful. It's very like peaceful to realize that everywhere has the same problems. The grass is not always greener. Yeah. Um and to realize that these group of people are just they've been so lovely, and they're great to point out things to you, to be like, you're so wonderful at that. Like you do that really, really well. And like they'll listen to where you feel like you're in a deficit or where you're having a problem. And it just feels so supportive and constructive, and like never it never have I felt judged for anything I've had to say, which is so important. Absolutely. Because sometimes when you get into a clinic and you just feel like worn down, everything's against you, you don't know where to turn to just have a conversation with somebody who feels safe. Yeah, and that's that's hard. So being able to have this opportunity's been great for that.

SPEAKER_08 42:27

Well, I think what I'm hearing is that this has been a safe space for you, that you felt that social support that the research indicates is pretty darn valuable, and you felt that safe space where you can share some of your struggles and get support with them and have all of your strengths pointed out as well. Would I have that right?

SPEAKER_06 42:45

Yeah, no, and it's it's been great. And I you can see how everybody's opened up throughout the week. And we were joking, we're like, when they do thrive too, we all need to come back as one big group together. Yeah, yeah. So reunite, reunite.

SPEAKER_08 42:59

Yep, absolutely. Uh another question for you, because we as veterinary professionals, right, go through school in vet school or tech school, and we learn all the skills, all the medical, technical skills that come with being a veterinary professional. And sometimes the resilience skills, the communication skills, the leadership skills are not quite as highly focused on.

SPEAKER_06 43:23

No.

SPEAKER_08 43:23

And so I'd be curious to hear what value you see in stepping back from that traditional sort of conference environment and stepping into a space like this that allows you to focus on some of those well-being skills that can potentially really improve your emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_06 43:41

Yeah, it's kind of like you had said the other day where when you go to a conference, it's great. You sit there, you listen, you're like, wow, this is great. You have absolutely no time to implement any of those things that are said. Sure. So you're just kind of like, this is great. And then you go home and you're you just forget it, and you're like, Well, what am I supposed to how am I? Even supposed to look at doing any of this. So being able to have the opportunity where everybody's pointing out, like, oh, you said but you said always. And just having that, yeah, and also like the kind of like everybody gives you like the gentle moment to like rethink if you're actively trying to rephrase something so it kind of fits a more positive mindset. Like people are very patient to like give you that space to think through it because it's not an easy thing to do when all of us are like actively wanting clearly we want to change, we want to be better individuals, both professionally um in our personal lives. So being able to like you, like you pointed out, the safe space to do those things is is great. And uh yeah, not not an experience you can get in a gross conference room.

SPEAKER_08 44:52

Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is definitely the polar opposite of a conference lecture hall. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Oh, I'm so glad it was that space for you. Yeah. Okay, I am here with another fantastic Thrive delegate. Chris, I would love for you to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Hello, I'm Chris Johnson. I'm an ER veterinarian from Bellingham, Washington. Um, I've been in practice for about 28 years. Woo-hoo! Small animals.

SPEAKER_08 45:21

Awesome, awesome. Thank you for the work that you do.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 45:24

Yeah, and thanks for coming here on Thrive. It's been wonderful getting to know you.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 45:28

Throughout the week, we've had a lot of fun together, yes? Yes, yeah, I know. That's one of the reasons why this research stood out to me, right? Because it was had such a such a focus on being outside and how that is associated with creating stronger emotional intelligence. And we have spent some time outside, right? Between game drives, Victoria Falls visits, town visits, even walking back and forth to our tents is all outside.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

I walk into the same spider web every single day.

SPEAKER_08 45:57

She's a clever girl, huh? So I'm curious, when you hear this research and you hear the tie that they found between creating emotional intelligence and spending time outside, what stands out to you about that?

SPEAKER_02 46:11

What it made me think about is how when I'm feeling physically stressed or strain in my muscles of the neck and my back and my shoulders, that I'll go outside and take a walk. And it's the best way I can alleviate that pain. And with veterinary work, we do a lot of things that cause neck and back pain, whether it's hunching over a surgery, hunching over a dental extraction for hours, or now at our desks with uh on the computer. And if I'm in physical pain, I'm having trouble concentrating on what I need to do for my clients and my patients. So if I am outside and I actually feel that stress and pain go away from a walk or you know, viewing nature, you know, looking up and looking around and like moving my neck back and forth, doing yoga on the on the front patio as I did while I was here. Um it's gonna allow me to ex experience or see other people's pain easier, um, whether that's emotional or stress or actual physical pain, you know, can they take care of their pet because they're in they're in pain. Yeah. And so I'm more alert to other people's discomfort because I no longer have it to focus on in myself.

SPEAKER_08 47:38

So I I think what I'm hearing you say is something really pretty powerful that if you're able to give yourself space to work through some of your pain in the outdoors, that it's uh easier and more approachable and more comfortable for you to be able to focus on somebody else's pain. And that you have that space, you can create that space for somebody else because you've created that space for yourself. Yes, and often that space for you is outside. Always, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

I mean, some people might do yoga indoors or indoor things, but for me it's always outside.

SPEAKER_08 48:17

Well, and you picked a heck of an outside. This has been an incredible place to be outside. Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that insight. Thank you. You're welcome. I am joined by one of our many wonderful Thrive delegates. Mike, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yes, my name is uh Dr. Mike Ward. I'm from uh North Carolina. Uh I'm a 2000 graduate from uh North Carolina State University, and I've had a pleasure to be at a very, very unique uh CE opportunity.

SPEAKER_08 48:49

Oh, that's awesome. Mike, we're so glad you're here. I wonder if you could share with some of our listeners if anyone out there right now is feeling a bit frustrated or overwhelmed, maybe disconnected with the profession right now. What would you want them to know about an experience like this?

SPEAKER_01 49:07

That this is a CE that uh just is a whole different experience than you would ever imagine, as far as the the classroom is actually not a classroom, it's a uh a beautiful facility that uh wildlife uh are everywhere. Elephants walked up next to our uh lecturing area uh just yesterday, we're right next to the pool. Uh being in Africa, which is the first time I've been to Africa, I mean wildlife is everywhere. Uh and the small uh size of the group, uh there's uh 11 of us, I believe, as far as the uh uh technicians and veterinarians, and then there's some of them brought their partners, but a very small group where you get to know everybody. Makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_08 49:55

That's great. So it sounds like that social connection really kind of resonated with you here that you were able to find an opportunity for that. Do I have that right?

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Absolutely, yes. Um CEs as are a lot like the classroom, it's just lecture style, then you you funnel in, get lectured at, funnel out, uh, and then it's just not much much time for interaction except over maybe a break, but uh whole different experience.

SPEAKER_08 50:23

And what did that mean for you?

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Uh I again I've been a veterinarian for 25 years, and when I first got out of school, all continuing education opportunities were the lecture style. And after I think about 10 years into practice, uh I started to see the smaller ones getting more and more popular. And now I mean they're just there's opportunities around every corner for smaller-sized, outdoor-based. Uh again, it's not just come here for CE to get the veterinary or the practice side brushed up on, it's to come get the mental health brushed up on and uh just to be uh out in this kind of environment uh and be on a safari. I mean, you don't get to say, I've been on a safari with many CE opportunities.

SPEAKER_08 51:16

Right, right. You don't have elephants join in on your lecture opportunities very often.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Absolutely not. Yeah, they uh they actually interrupted interrupted the uh the uh lecturing. Right. I shouldn't say the class that we were having and the break them crunching the branches uh just distracted everybody and we just had to stop and watch them. This is fascinating.

SPEAKER_08 51:36

Mm-hmm. The best distraction ever. Yeah, best distraction ever.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_08 51:41

Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much for sharing that, Mike. We're here with yet another amazing Thrive Delegate. I've had the pleasure of spending almost an entire week with Megan, and I can't wait for you to meet her. Megan, can you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_07 51:54

Uh hi, I'm a small animal veterinarian from Salt Lake City, Utah, who graduated vet school in 2020 from WSU.

SPEAKER_08 52:00

Awesome. Now, Megan, we've been here, like I said, almost a whole week, and we've done all sorts of really great things outside. We've done a number of game drives, we've been over to Vic Falls, we spent time in town, and this research really seems to indicate that spending time outside is one of the many things that can contribute to our emotional intelligence. And I'm wondering, after experiencing all of this, what impact does this have on your outlook, on your life or your work experience?

SPEAKER_07 52:30

Yeah, I'd say being outside is very grounding to me. Um, like it uh provides me a lot of peace and clarity in my life. So um coming here and experiencing not only the outdoors, but outdoors in Africa where we're experiencing totally new environments has really brought a greater outlook to life to me. Like I feel a lot more ready to take on those like hard clients at work in those difficult cases. Um my partner is here with me and we've already had a lot of like really good conversation just about like our outlook on things and what the future looks like for like our relationship, especially after talking about conflict styles and all of these things. But yeah, I think being outside is very just very grounding and really makes me feel, I don't know, very like hopeful moving forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 53:20

Something else that stood out to me in listening to what you were saying is that it seems that you've been given some space while you've been here, space to kind of process what the future might look for you, space to kind of think about how you want to go back to the real world and kind of interact with that and how you want to show up. Do I have that right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's great. I love that. I mean, what what better space could we offer? Yeah, I mean, this is the most beautiful space in the world. So I can see how that would be helpful for you. Yeah, for sure. Now I'm willing to bet that some of our listeners out there are feeling a little bit maybe disconnected from the profession, maybe a little bit frustrated. And I would love to know what would you like to share with them about an experience like this?

SPEAKER_07 54:06

Do it. Just do it. Um, this came at the perfect time because in the past two weeks I've had very difficult medical cases to manage, and I was feeling very overwhelmed at work. So even just having, like you said, that break from reality to come here and spend time with wonderful people and really connect with people very deeply has been very meaningful. Um, but yeah, I'd say just do it. Like take the leap and come.

SPEAKER_08 54:33

That's amazing. Well, I'm glad you took the leap. Me too. It's been lovely to spend time with you. Me too. Yeah. And thanks for sharing your thoughts. Of course. Thanks. Now, Mike and Megan weren't the only ones that had something to share to listeners who might be feeling disconnected or overwhelmed at the moment. Here's what some of the other delegates wanted to make sure that you heard about an experience like this.

SPEAKER_05 54:55

It forces you to step back from like your everyday run, like rat race um life, and just literally focus on what is inside and how you feel, and it's just a lot of introspection. And then you're also hanging out in nature, and it just slows down and it's peaceful and it's beautiful, and it gives you like space to think where real life you don't get that very often. Yeah. That space. So I just say just do it.

unknown 55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:24

I got a lot more out of this conference than I thought I would, because I'm not a believer in mental health. My my mental health is getting outside and and hiking. But actually talking through problems with other veterinarians is a really good way to do it. Yeah. Like seeing a mental health counselor outside of this environment, I don't think would be as effective as talking to veterinarians. Sure, sure. Who are dealing with the exact same stress as we are all are.

SPEAKER_08 55:46

We get it, right? We get each other. I love that. And you found that space here and that's beautiful. Yeah, this is a great conference. I would recommend it to anyone.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

Yay. And you get to come to Africa. I think any continuing education is good for boosting your morale to get back to work more rejuvenated about being a veterinarian. But this is just unique. I've learned, I've learned things that will help me in my daily practice. I've learned things that will help me communicate more effectively with my my staff, fellow doctors, clients. I've learned to appreciate others' perspectives and try to see things from the other perspective instead of just my understanding of a situation. So I think this is a very unique conference for all of that. I've never had a CE like this. Yeah. And I'd really recommend it for everyone. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_08 56:32

I'm so glad you shared. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this stuff. Awesome. Thanks, Dana.

SPEAKER_06 56:37

If it speaks to you, then just take the leap and take that opportunity because it could be very valuable to you. Yeah. And really change how you feel about yourself, how you feel about others, how you feel about the relationships in your life, both professional and personal. It can make a huge difference for you being the best version of yourself overall.

SPEAKER_08 56:59

Okay, as we wrap up this episode, I just keep coming back to something really simple that this research highlights. Emotional intelligence does not just magically appear because somebody becomes a veterinarian. It grows in environments where people have made space and set the intention to deliberately support their development. This study it explored and it found that emotional intelligence was associated with those three things, right? Better mental health, stronger social support, and time spent outside. And when you listen to the voices that we've heard in this episode, it becomes pretty clear how much of those things actually matter. This week it thrives, it's been filled with moments that support exactly those ingredients. Meaningful conversations between colleagues and time to spend outdoors. Reconnecting with the natural world. And I find it encouraging that emotional intelligence is not something that you either have or don't have. It's something that you can grow and develop, especially when the conditions are right. Now you know who else is right in a variety of conditions. Oh my goodness. They sure do. And if you think Florida Man was a special thing, you have not had Zimbabwe. And today you are about to meet Zimbabwe. So this week is Zimbabwe. That is Lady of the Night. Turned into a donkey overnight. In Harry, which is one of the large cities in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe, man. He hired a professional lady of the night during the night transformed into a donkey. And now he is, quote, seriously in love with an animal. And when he was in court, he told them that he also became a donkey. And that the two of them are in love. I know, it just gets better. Not only did she turn into a donkey, he loves her and he's also turned into a donkey.

SPEAKER_03 59:28

What if he turned into a donkey? If he just discovered that he's being a donkey all along. Ooh.

SPEAKER_08 59:33

That matters. That matters. I mean, it's all all questions. Yeah. Irrelevant questions. I know. So if you thought you were special there, Florida man, you have a competitor, and that is a Zimbabwe man. Zimbabwe Donkey Man. Yeah. Zimbabwe Donkey Man. Yeah. Yeah. He's probably uh top of the uh top of the top of the tier, top of the totem pole. Yep, yep. Now, don't worry, I will absolutely link a uh link to Zimbabwe Man in our show notes. But please share this episode with friends. Check out all of the links to Worldwide Vets and Thrive in the show notes because it's an absolutely amazing opportunity. The dates for next year have already been set. So get it on your schedule, start finagling your budget because I've got to tell you, it is worth it. Thanks again, Danny, for joining me. It was so lovely to have you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

Thank you so much for having me and giving me the opportunity to talk not only about my culture, but about, you know, mental health and this space. And it's it's just such a privilege to be here. So I'm so grateful.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:36

Thank you. Thank you for all the laughs, the smiles, and of course your friendship. Thank you, Andy.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

I'm so, so incredibly grateful to have you with a friend. Aw, yay! See you guys next time.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:50

Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, powered by the science of workplace well-being, and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting. If today's episode sparked an idea, made you smile, or got you thinking, hey, I should totally try that. Let us know. What do you think? Be sure to subscribe, share, and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible, and you don't have to build it alone.