SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application. I'm Andy Davison.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm Josh Weisman. Together, we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team, one episode at a time.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Curiosity. Sounds simple, right? Just ask more questions. But what if the way that we're being curious is actually creating distance instead of connection? Today we're digging into the science behind curiosity and why how we ask matters just as much as what we ask. Hello, Joshua. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

I'm good, Andrea. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

How often do people call you Joshua? It feels weird.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I don't get called Joshua very often. I'm sometimes called John, which I think is hilarious to me. People will accidentally call me John. I don't know. I must look like a John. I had a friend in high school, her name was Tara, and Tara would call me Oa. Ooh. Yeah, she would call me Oa because everyone called me Josh, and she felt like the last two letters must have felt left out.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, so she would call me Oa. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

That is really that's good. That's creative. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Are you ever called Andrea, other than like in these random conversations?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

No, not really. I mean, officially, right? Like if you're going to the doctor or if you're boarding the plane or if you're doing something official at the bank, like official stuff. Um, but I'm almost always called Andy. My big sort of oops is that they always spell it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

It's always with the why. With the why. No, I'm Andy with an I. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. Yeah. I've totally seen that. I feel like I've had conversations with people like by email or something. Um, folks who know you, but they're sending me an email and they'll refer to you. And in the email, they they almost always it's A N D Y. Why? Yep. It's just not right. Hey, I I actually have something I want to share with you because I find it very entertaining. Um, you live in Florida, I live in Colorado. We have very different weather. One of the things that you have that, of course, we don't have is hurricanes, right? Yeah. We yeah, we don't get hurricanes in Colorado. Sometimes we get like tornadoes, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Don't worry if you did. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Seriously. Um a few years back, I don't know if you remember this. I'm trying to remember exactly when it was, maybe four-ish years ago, something like this. It made national news. So so I ask people, there was a massive winter windstorm. So what will happen in Colorado sometimes is like we'll get surprisingly on the front range, it most people don't expect this. They think of Colorado, they think of winter, they think of lots of snow and skiing. And that happens in the mountains, but down here on the front range, which is the western plains in the center of the country, right? Um, it's not unusual for us to not really get any precipitation, snow, rain, anything, until January or February. And so it gets really dry. And then sometimes we'll have these fronts move through where it's super windy, these crazy winds that come off of the mountains, and it might be warm and it's really dry. And so this is fire danger. And there was a big fire. I don't know if you remember this. It was a fire like right outside of Boulder, and it was unusual for a couple of reasons. First of all, because it happened in the boulder area. Most of the fires that we have in Colorado are like in the mountains, but also it was super windy, and the fire traveled very, very quickly uh across into like the Louisville area, um, which is fairly densely populated, and I think something like 1,100 homes burned. Do you remember this? Do you recall this at all?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Oh, very vaguely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, it was always devastating. It was bad. It was really devastating, it was horrific. Where we live, which is probably like I don't know, 20, 25 miles northeast of there, like we could see it from here. It was it was really bad, it was terrifying. Um, it turned out afterwards that one of the utilities, one of the major providers of electricity, was kind of at fault for the reason that the fire started. Well, this week in Colorado, there's these big windstorms coming through. There was one here on Wednesday, and there's one that's supposedly coming through today. And so the um the utilities have like preemptively shut in some of these neighborhoods. Yeah. My my wife's like one of her friends, like, no power at her house for a few hours. Just like, we're just we're not screwing around, we're not gonna pay out you know, millions or billions of dollars again. We're just gonna cut off power. But what's funny to me is the way that they've like sort of justified it is like the language is like it's gonna be hundred mile an hour winds, it's hurricane force winds. And I'm like, we're in Colorado. It's not, I mean, I get it, yes, it's the same speed, but it's gusts and it's not a hurricane. I just think it's really funny that they're describing it as hurricane force winds, hurricane force winds.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

The hurricanes of Colorado.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, the hurricanes of Colorado is very, it's very funny. Yeah, it's pretty funny. It's pretty wild. The weather that we get here sometimes is pretty wild. So we'll see, we'll see what happens today. Knock on wood, it's not like it was a few years ago.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, the your weather is fascinating. I never would have expected the Colorado weather to be so versatile, I think is the word I'll use. Because I I'm I'm that person that's like, oh, it snows there. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, and that's where it stops.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

But no.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Today is uh December 19th that we are recording this, and it is supposed to be almost 70 degrees today.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Oh, that's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Yeah, Christmas Day is supposed to be clear and 67. Like that doesn't that's not what you think of when you think of Colorado.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Not at all. Not at all.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yep, nope. Speaking of Christmas, I I realized recently that I have a new superpower. Oh, dude Yeah, I can actually see inside of wrapped presents. Like with for the holidays, you know, like my wife is like wrapping presents, you know, for me, for other people, this and that. I don't have to be there when she wraps it. Like she she shows me the wrapped present, I can see inside it. Okay. It's a gift.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Does she roll her eyes at you when you do stuff like that too?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

She doesn't even bother rolling her eyes. That's a waste of her time and energy.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Oh, it's just another day with Josh.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

It's just another day with Josh. I'm so sorry. Ooh. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Another day with ooh. Oh, that's funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Well, Josh, I would actually like to share a story with you. And while it isn't weather related, I think it's something that you and the listeners are really going to kind of appreciate and relate to. And this story, this moment, it ended up being really influential on how I think about curiosity, leadership, and thriving at work. Now, this story comes from a moment back in my time at a booming and bustling hospital. I remember the day we had a variety of patients that needed everything from a physical exam to new fluid bags every two hours. It was busy, it was loud, it was barely controlled chaos. Now, one of the residents that I worked with pretty normally was chatty. She was helpful, you know, the kind of person that smiles at you when you walk by, the one that always checks in with the team right before they roll up their sleeves to dig in and get shit done. But this day, it was different. When I arrived at the hospital, they were already there, elbows deep into the shift, head down, blinders on, no jokes, no smiles, just quiet focus. Now I noticed this immediately. And this is the part that I'm not super proud of because instead of getting genuinely curious with her, I allowed my brain to start creating reasons for why she was so quietly focused. I totally started assuming. Or was she, God forbid, mad at me? And instead of asking them, I did exactly what so many of us do. I asked around quiet questions, whispered in the corner of the pharmacy. Hey, Dr. Sunshine seems a bit off today. Do you know what's going on with them? And the more I did that, the more my assumptions hardened, even though I had zero actual information. Eventually, I did. I found a quiet moment away from the ringing phones and the beeping pumps to actually check in with her directly. And I will never ever forget this part. Because when I finally asked, genuinely asked, what was going on, the answer was absolutely nothing like what I assumed. Not even close. And in that moment, it really hit me how powerful curiosity actually is and how dangerous it can be if we do it sideways. There were two versions of curiosity available to me that day. One created distance and misunderstanding, and the other created a connection with trust and support. That experience really cemented something that I truly and firmly believe pretty darn deeply that genuine curiosity is the foundation of thriving. Because when we're truly curious with ourselves and with others, we invite perspective, understanding, and connection, all of which support productive relationships that can contribute to our thriving, right? In ways that are pretty darn magical. So, Josh, have you ever realized that a story that you told yourself about someone or something was completely wrong once you actually asked about it?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Um I think the question you want to ask is, Josh, in the last 24 hours, have you ever realized that? Yeah. Uh I I feel like this happens constantly, right? Like the stories in our head and when we actually collect real-world data and how that often misaligns with the stories in our head. Uh, but an example that I'm thinking of as I was listening to you describe this experience at work takes me back, oh gosh, um 15, 16 years ago, something like that. At a hospital, I was the managing partner and I was the hospital director. And uh, we had a client that was dropping off her cat for a pretty extensive dental procedure. And I remember I was sitting back in the office, and one of the veterinarians there came back and said, Hey, just so you know, um, Mrs. Smith is gonna need to talk to you when she picks up Fluffy because she's probably gonna need a payment plan. She's you know, really upset about the cost and you know, she can't afford it and like all these things, right? All these things that I later realized were assumptions based on a very, very limited interaction. So at the end of the day, when it came to discharge for this patient, um, the vet like reminded me, she was like super nervous about this client coming back in, right? So just like you know, discharge is coming, I need you up there. Uh and so I, you know, I went up and I met with Mrs. Smith and, you know, I asked her. I said, Hey, my understanding is that you're curious about a payment plan for uh Fluffy's procedure today. She says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd love to hear more about that. So I got out our document, I walked her through it. It was like an agreement, you know, here are the specifications. Um, here's what we ask you to sign, here's the options we have for dividing out the payment, um, here's the administration fee, and then here's the interest that we charge on any unpaid portion. And she looked at me and she said, Oh, wait, there's an there's extra fees. I thought that it was just like a, you know, to break up payment over time. And of course, that like with the assumptions that I had about her, based on the assumptions that my partner had about her, the immediate story in my head was like, Oh, this person's gonna be a real pain in the ass. They don't want to pay. They're probably one of those people that thinks that we overcharge for things and this and that. I said, Yeah, you know, I'm really sorry. We're not like a standard bank. Um, you know, I can't offer you that kind of thing. Like, this is this is what we can offer. What would you like to do? And she, no joke, Andy, reached into her pocket and pulled out, I shit you not, a giant wad of hundred dollar bills. Like rolled up like I was, I know. I was like, uh, I don't know what you do for a living. It's different than what I do. Um, and she like she she unfolded it and she just pulled out 11 of them or whatever it was for this procedure and just paid for it in cash. And I was like shocked, like really shocked. And I remember in the moment just like being like slackjawed, like, I don't even know what's happening here. But somehow I had the wherewithal to ask her. I said, you know, I gotta be honest with you, I'm a little bit surprised. I thought that you like were gonna have issues paying this bill, but here you are paying for it in full in cash. And she said, Yeah, it was never really about the bill for me. And she described some things to me that were going on in her life. She was juggling finances, and she figured if there was a way to like spread this out over time instead of pay the whole thing up front, that would actually benefit her uh in other areas of her life. She was she had no problem with what we charged, she was completely happy with the level of care. This was a client who was gonna come back. Like all of these assumptions kind of went out the door simply because I asked. This is what I'm seeing. This is what I kind of told myself in my head, help me understand the gap here. And she explained the gap.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah. It sounds like that extra question, right? That deeper, curious question was really helpful to you and her. And I'd I would love to hear what gave you the courage to go there instead of just sitting with your assumption or in realizing that your assumption maybe wasn't right and just putting your tail between your legs and like scooting off to the office with your wad of hundred dollar bills.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I am cherry picking a story, obviously, for the purpose of this episode uh that displays me using curiosity in a moment like that. I don't know how many times in my life I failed to do that. I didn't have the courage or the openness to ask that question. And that's really, I think, what was happening there for me in that moment. I don't actually view it as courage. I don't think I was being courageous. I think I was just downright curious. Like I was very surprised. And in that moment, instead of what I've probably done a hundred times in my life, which is like just hold on to a new story, never get any real data about it. Like it would have been really easy for me to walk away from that and be like, well, then what the hell was she complaining about in the first place? Clearly, this person can afford this stuff. What is wrong with her? Gosh, I wonder where all that cash came from, right? Like, you know, like I could have just taken that and walked away with that. But for some reason, in that moment, maybe it was the surprise of it all. I don't know. But it it allowed me to have a moment of openness, which led to curiosity. And and that curiosity ended up being like, okay, I gotta be honest with you, this is not what I expected. Like, I really just wanted to know. This is weird, what is going on here? And allowing her the space to do that, sons judgment. I think that was the other thing too. Like, I wasn't being judgmental, like I really just wanted to understand. Um, and that gave her the opportunity to, she was very matter-of-fact about it. Like, she was also not judgmental or defensive. She was just like, Oh, yeah, I just figured if there was a way for me to spread this out, that it would be better for me. But there isn't, so I'm just gonna pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Gosh, yeah. Wow. How cool that you were both able to walk away from that experience, right, without judging one another and understanding more about where each person came from. That's a great story. And it leads into the paper that I've brought to the lab today perfectly, because this paper, it's fresh, right? It was published back in 2024 in Frontiers in Psychology. And it was written by two people, one of which I'm going to screw up their name royally, and I apologize in advance. But the authors of this article are Heather Lawford and here we go, Melanie Latondra We're gonna go. And yeah, I'm gonna go with that. I uh I'm excited about this article though, and I'm grateful to the authors because when I came across it, I couldn't stop grinning and I couldn't download it fast enough because the title alone is really on brand for the things that we care about here at Flourish. The title of this paper is Interpersonal Curiosity as a tool to foster safe relational spaces, which, yeah, may sound a little bit academic at first glance. But once you dig in, you realize that this paper is actually talking about something incredibly human and incredibly relevant to veterinary teams? Because at its core, this paper asks a deceptively simple question. Can curiosity about other people help create safer, more trusting, more connected relationships? And if so, what kind of curiosity actually helps? And what kind quietly makes things worse? Now, here's an important thing to name right up front, because this paper is actually not a single experiment. And it's not even a meta-analysis that crunches numbers and data. This paper is what we call a narrative literature review, which means the authors went out and peer-reviewed studies across multiple disciplines. In this case, they pulled 23 studies from psychology, healthcare, education, negotiation, crisis management, right? And then pulled all of those findings together, organized and advanced them into a coherent and actionable argument about how interpersonal curiosity actually functions in real relationships. So basically the authors were asking two big questions. How does interpersonal curiosity create relational safety? And how do we turn science into something that real humans can actually do? That translation from research into real life is the thing that got me so excited about this paper and why it felt like a total no-brainer to bring it into the lab. Because this is not theory for theory's sake. This is what does science collectively tell us and how do we actually use it? Cool, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

So let's talk first about what they mean by interpersonal curiosity, because this is not about being nosy and it's definitely not about asking more questions just for the sake of asking them. The authors define interpersonal curiosity as the genuine desire to understand other people, their experiences, emotions, perspectives, stories. And they make a pretty important distinction early on. They say that curiosity can show up for us in two ways as a state or something momentary, intentional, something that we choose in a specific interaction, or as a trait, which is a more stable habit, a way that someone consistently shows up to relationships over time. That distinction, Josh, it matters because it means that curiosity is not a personality trait. It's not something that you have or don't have. It's a skill, something that can be practiced, shaped, and strengthened. Now, here's where the paper gets interesting and kind of relevant to veterinary culture because the authors show us that curiosity is not automatically good. And I feel like this is such an important counterpoint because we hear just be curious, thrown around all the time in leadership and well-being spaces. This paper reminds us to slow your role because curiosity can be expressed in two ways, in overt ways and in covert ways. Now, overt ways are the things that we want more of. It's open, respectful, empathetic, connection-focused curiosity. It sounds a lot like help me understand what this has been like for you. What am I missing here? And you know, I might be wrong, but I'm curious to hear more about how you're seeing this. Overt curiosity builds trust. It increases psychological safety and it helps people feel seen instead of scrutinized. But then there is covert curiosity. Covert curiosity is where things can quietly go sideways because that type of curiosity shows up as gossip, snooping, speculating, right? Assuming instead of asking, and asking questions that are more about control than about understanding. And the research shows us that covert curiosity, especially when driven by anxiety, power imbalance, lack of trust, actually erodes relational safety instead of building it up. Which, if you've ever worked in a veterinary clinic, you're probably quietly nodding your head right now. Because curiosity in vetmed, it can feel amazing or it can feel like a spotlight that nobody asked for. Now, another major contribution of this paper is how clearly it connects interpersonal curiosity to relational safety. The authors define relational safe spaces as environments where people feel respected, emotionally secure, and free to speak honestly. Now, Josh, this paper it uses the term relational safety rather than psychological safety. And this is intentional. Relational safety is what happens in individual interactions. Psychological safety is what emerges when enough of those interactions consistently feel safe over time. So think of it this way relational safety is the ingredient, and psychological safety is the cultural cake that is a result of those ingredients being. Constantly added to the mixing bowl.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

You said cake.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Cake. I know.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

And now now I crave cake.

unknown 22:08

Cake.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

All the cake, any cake, any time, cake for breakfast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yes, I I want me some psychological safety cake.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Oh, okay. What does psychological safety cake taste like?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Delicious.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yes. I'm on board with that. Okay. So we don't get off on cake for too long. The 23 studies that these authors looked at, reviewed, and kind of shared with us revealed a consistent pattern. That when interpersonal curiosity is expressed overtly and empathetically, it actually strengthens trust. It supports conflict repair and it improves learning and collaboration. In other words, curious, in other words, curiosity helps human teams stay human when things get hard. It helps them tolerate uncertainty without becoming defensive. And I love it because the authors, they didn't stop here. They actually took it one step further. And they talked about how curiosity can become cultural. They explained that while curiosity can start as a state, right? That moment-to-moment choice, that when it's repeated and practiced, that it can turn into a trait, which means curiosity is modeled in our cultures. It can be rewarded and it can become normalized in leadership and peer interactions. The more it becomes how we do things around here, quote fingers, is that magical step towards culture renovation. So, no, this is not about teaching people to ask better questions one. This is about shaping relational habits that make psychological safety more likely over time. So, to zoom out for just a second, the paper ultimately gives us a framework. It helps us understand why curiosity can be such a powerful cultural tool when it helps relationships thrive and when it quietly causes harm. And it gives leaders, teams, and humans in hard jobs, hello, vetmed, a way to practice curiosity without weaponizing it, which feels very important for the conversation, right? So, Josh, after sitting with all of this science around curiosity and relationships, I'm curious, where have you seen curiosity, good or bad, shape the culture of a team in a way that really stuck with you?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Hmm. I'm thinking of so many examples. I don't want to share all of them all at once because we'll be here for hours. Um, okay, so a recent one that I had, which I think is really heavily related to the ethos of this paper and this idea of relational safety and cultivating psychological safety over time. I was having a conversation with a technician training manager, a nurse who works in a an emergency practice, and uh they had a drug dose error. They had a technician who had miscalculated a drug dose, right? And we were talking about like, okay, so what are you gonna do with this? Like, how are you gonna approach this? And her her response was something along the lines of, well, you know, I'd I'd love to sit down and coach this person. I said, Okay, so what is what is coaching look like for you? What will you say? And and she said, Well, you know, I'm I I'm I'm curious about like why they made the mistake and what training they need to make sure that they don't make the mistake again, right? I said, Okay, well, how will you ask those questions? Well, I'll just ask them, like, you know, what do you think happened here? Why did you make this mistake? And what kind of training do you think you need to make sure you don't make the mistake again? And Andy, I can see you kind of smirking and nodding. And so, so I mean, does that does that sound to you like a an overt or covert form of curiosity?

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Um, for me, that would definitely land in covert.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Right, yeah, because it sort of implies like there is something wrong with you. You are doing something wrong. You need to write the assumption is that you are the problem. And and so I that's what I tried to convey to her. And I said, you know, what would be ways that we could ask this with more openness, with more, um, I didn't use the language at the time because I hadn't heard about this paper yet, but with more overt curiosity. And where we kind of landed was that we could ask the question of like, what got in the way of you doing this right?

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Right?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Which is that could be anything. That could be, oh, I actually didn't know what I was doing, but that could also be um there were two technicians missing that day, and I was still expected to manage the caseload of three people by myself, right? So that is an example of how I think curiosity shows up in our day-to-day interactions. Like this is just a singular interaction that happens so frequently in hospitals, but we don't take the time to really think about okay, how I'm approaching my use of curiosity with this person may not actually be beneficial coaching, it may be setting them up for uh, you know, for shame.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Mm-hmm. Yep. That spotlight that nobody asked for. There it is. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, hello there. If this conversation is landing with you, I'm willing to bet you're not alone. Why not follow the podcast or share this episode with some of your fellow vet crew? Together, we can all be part of a community that believes that thriving in VetMed is possible and actively works to build the profession that we all deserve. Now, if you're ready to take the next step, check out our upcoming Flourish Academy masterclass to support your positive leadership skills. It's linked in the show notes. Now, back to the culture lab. So let's shift out of this research summary mode, right? And let's shift into real life mode. Because, like I said a minute ago, one of the things that I got so excited about this paper, and it made me do a little happy dance at my desk when I found it, is the practicality that the authors bring to the idea of interpersonal curiosity. They are very clear about how to practice it well. And honestly, in vetmed, we do not need more advice of just communicate better. We need guardrails. We need to know what actually helps. So the authors essentially give us three really big ways to put this into action the right way. And what I would love to do is walk through each of them and hear how this lands for you. Are you cool with that, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Oh, heck yeah. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

All right. So let's jump in to their action step number one. This is one of the strongest messages in this paper. And it's the reminder that curiosity, it only builds relational safety when it's grounded in affiliative intent. So, in other words, before you ask a question, we really should be asking ourselves: is my goal here to connect with the other person or to control the other person? Because curiosity meant to understand feels way different than curiosity meant to fix, meant to judge, and meant to gather information for leverage. So, Josh, tell us about a time when you were on the receiving end of a question that technically sounded curious, but it didn't feel safe or supportive at all.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Okay, so I'm thinking back to a job that I was fired from many, many years ago. Many moons passed. I was actually fired from a job. Um, part of the reason that I was fired, so I don't want to incriminate anybody um uh or paint anyone in an overtly negative light. So I'm gonna try and be careful about how I share all this. Um, but the place that I worked at, my boss, the general manager, who was also a part owner, um, his wife also worked there in a role similar to mine. We were both kind of like assistant manager roles. Uh, however, the responsibility on my shoulders far outweighed her level of responsibility. I had a lot more work that I had to do. Um, and one day, as I was closing up shop, I uh went to do some work in the office, and I noticed that he had left out the roster of employees, including himself and his wife, and their salaries. And that's when I found out that he was paying his wife significantly more than he was paying me. And I was really upset, really upset by it, and handled it incredibly immaturely, like absolutely immaturely. Um, not all that dissimilar from uh maybe a more uh a worse version of what you shared in the story at the beginning of this episode, right? Instead of going to him or to her, I went to everyone else, basically just uh expressing how pissed off I was about it. Uh, you know, I went to people who technically reported to me, people who were uh lower in the food chain, if you will. And I I kind of complained about this and this and that. Of course, word got back to him eventually, and he was understandably upset, and he sat me down and he ended up firing me for all this. Um, one of the first questions he asked me was, So I understand that you're upset with how much I pay my wife. Do I have that right? And that was not actually what I was upset about, right? Like I and I said that to him. I said, I honestly don't care how much you pay her. That is your decision to make. What's upsetting to me is how much more she makes than me, given my level of responsibility. Um, and then later on in the conversation when he finally decided, you know, to fire me, the question that he asked me was, Well, you know, given this situation and given the scenario, and given the way that you've handled it, you know, so poorly and how disrespectful you've been. Like he just laid out, like, here are all the bullet points for why you should be fired. And then he asked me, What would you have me do?

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Oh right.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Like, it's like, yeah, that that's not that's you're not actually curious what I think about this, right? Like you're just trying to defend yourself or what you're about to do. Um, so that that those are the examples that really emerge for me when you asked me that question.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Um, from the look on your face right now, this many years later, I can definitely get a sense for how you received that question and how all of that made you feel. And curious and heard and seen are not are not in that category.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

No, those are not terms that I would describe how I was feeling in that moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Yep. Yep. Well, the second step that the authors give us fits in with your experience quite a bit because it draws that clear line between that overt curiosity and the covert curiosity. So remember that overt curiosity is direct, respectful, transparent, where covert curiosity shows up as gossip, speculation, side conversations, right? That asking around that you and I are both guilty of. And the research, it's really pretty blunt here that overt curiosity builds trust. That only overt curiosity builds trust. Now, this one really stood out to me because I've seen it. And like you, I've experienced it so many times. People disguise, leverage, power, condescending behavior behind that question mark. And it isn't curiosity, it's happening out there all the time. I used to work with a colleague that when training new staff would often start out his questions with the phrase, don't you think? He would say things like, Don't you think the owner would prefer to see Dr. Jones instead of Dr. Smith? Or don't you think it would be more efficient if we sterilized both packs at the same time? Talk about condescending. But that question mark, right? It made it really, really easy for him to hide behind. Josh, why do you think people sometimes feel safer asking these types of covert questions?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, that's a that's a really great question. Um, I think that intuitively, especially when we're in a position of power, so somebody who's conducting training or somebody who's a manager, the hospital owner, medical director, any any of those, an executive, right? I think we sort of like intuitively know, probably because we've been told over and over and over again, just be more curious, communicate better, that we're supposed to be curious. Like uh, and lately, uh over the last few years, this word coaching has really emerged as a buzz term uh, you know, in management and leadership circles within veterinary medicine. And so we sort of we intuitively know that we're supposed to be like good coaches too. And good coaches ask great questions, right? And so I think all of that stuff sort of it lives in the back of our mind and so it pressures us to add the question mark to things. But the truth is that most of us, most of the time, have never really been properly trained or taught what good quality, overt, relational building, trust-enhancing questions look like. And so we think if we just add a question mark, that that's gonna help. I also think that sometimes um we are just plain old using our power. You know, I think when that guy was getting ready to fire me, he was so upset with me. He was so hurt and felt so disrespected by my behavior that he simply could not put himself in a space of overt curiosity. Uh, and so he was actually using the questions as a weapon to like prove a point or validate himself. So that to me feels like the two big reasons why we see people doing that.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I wonder if the pressure to get it done, whatever it is, right? Get the person trained, get this guy out of here, deal with this situation, have this difficult conversation, along with the pressure to be the leader, it doesn't just get really heavy for people. And it's just easier to hide behind that question mark for the reasons that you mentioned, right? Because we feel like that's what we're supposed to do, and that we can validate how we handled the situation by saying, Oh, but I but I was curious. I said, Don't you think it would be better if, right? Like that's a question. I don't understand what the problem is. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I think you're I think you're really onto something here, Andy. Uh this is really good. And I hadn't thought about this. So I appreciate you adding this in here. The time pressure thing, right? So if I'm if I'm training you as a new technician on our team, and I'm training you on how we uh, you know, wrap and sterilize packs, and it it seems just clearly obvious to me that you want to instead of like doing them as they come in, you want to wait till the end of all of the surgical procedures to clean, wrap, and sterilize all the packs at once. That's the most efficient way to do it, right? That that seems obvious to me. But I also have the pressure of training you, training two veterinary assistants and assisting in surgery all day today, right? Like, so I feel like I'm being pulled in a million different fucking directions. And now I have to deal with you who doesn't obviously get that you should just wait till the end of the day. I'm frustrated, I'm you know, I'm feeling the pressure of that, but I also know in the back of my head I'm supposed to be a coach and you know, I'm supposed to ask curious questions. It would totally make sense that all of that pressure would drive me to be like, well, Andy, don't you think you should just wait for two packs before you start off the autoclave?

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Yeah.

unknown 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Look, I was curious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah. Amen. Amen. And it's funny because it's true, right? Like I've been there. I've been there. Yeah. I've been there. Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

And that pressure kind of leads into the third action step, which is my most favorite action step that the authors brought, because they emphasize that curiosity becomes truly powerful when we use it consistently, that through constant repetition, we are able to build our curiosity muscles. And they remind us to take advantage of a variety of opportunities to get curious and to be intentional about it. And I really appreciate this reminder here because it's saying that we don't have to do these things perfectly every single time. In fact, we don't have to do them every single time. We just have to actually do them occasionally, consistently, in ways that make sense. Now, Josh, I know we talk about this a lot, right? The small, consistent efforts and the power that comes with them. And it absolutely applies to genuine curiosity. So let's carry that concept over into culture renovation mode because curiosity isn't helpful if it just stays this abstract thing and relational safety doesn't improve just because we understand what it is. So let's take those three big action steps and create some practical, very veterinary ways to turn genuine overt curiosity into motion right now. One idea that I get really excited about and actually ties into that third action step, is the power that comes with curiosity through repetition. And that the safest way to build this is often in low stakes moments, not conflict, not performance evaluations, not when emotions are running high, boring everyday interactions. Because those are the moments where curiosity can feel a little bit less risky, and we can build that muscle through repetition. So here are a couple of simple ways to put this concept into your daily life. Make a pact with yourself to ask one genuine curious question a day. Just one, just one a doable number, nothing overwhelming. It doesn't have to be a big profound or poetic question. It just has to be real. It might sound something like what might work well here. Why is this important to you? Tell me more about that. Or my most favorite question, what do you think? I love these examples because they work in all sorts of situations. You can have them locked, loaded, and ready to go as you build confidence in this department. Now, once you've asked this lovely curious question, the next step is key to actually listen without fixing, without correcting, without rushing past it. Just breathe and listen. This is how curiosity shifts from something that we try to something that we practice. And here's my pro tip because this can bring some serious extra magic. Get curious about what is working, not just what's broken. You know, in vetmed, we are incredibly good, right, at diagnosing the problem. Hello, that's what we all went to school for. That's what we do. But curiosity, it does not have to live only in the land of issues, disease, efficiency. Curiosity can be about strengths, about wind, about things that are going right. Asking what felt good about today? Or what part of that case worked out better than expected can really tell people that I see you, I notice you, I want to understand because I care. Josh, what about you in your vast, vast veterinary experience? What are a couple of specific realistic ways that veterinary teams might implement curiosity?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

I love that question. Um, two things that come to mind for me. The first one is in training, especially in leadership training. Uh, I think like research like this, papers like this, these kinds of data points should be uh part of leadership training. Like we should train leaders on what curiosity is, why it's so important, and how to practice it, how to actually ask overt questions, how to set yourself up to be in an overt state. Uh, that should be part of leadership training. And then it should be um measured and assessed. It should be part of leadership performance evaluation, like how we evaluate the quality and performance of our managers uh is in part measured by their capacity and delivery, demonstration of overt curiosity. So that's the first thing. Um the second thing that comes to mind for me is um gathering stories. So, story gathering, I think, is a really powerful tool, anyway, for any cultural activity or you know, workplace experience. Uh, and you actually teed this up really great with your question of like focusing on what's working, right? Um, so getting really curious about uh here are things that we are trying to do here. Where are we doing it well? Where are these things already happening? Give me an example of a time that you felt like XYZ was was truly happening here. Give me an example of a time when you felt like we could have done just a little more and got us to XYZ happening, whatever your cultural value is. Or I mean, I could actually be curiosity about curiosity. Tell me about a time when someone here made you feel really heard, right? Like, you know, and and then like actually collecting the stories, celebrating those stories, using those stories is cultural fodder. I think, I think that's a really nice way to uh implement curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, those are two fantastic suggestions. Um, the the one that stood out to me was the value that comes with educating others in what this can look like and giving them an opportunity to practice it, right? Because, like we've said earlier, this is a skill. This is something that if practiced intentionally, we can get better at it. And I, gosh, I just really wish that I knew of some fantastic educational opportunities to learn more about the value of curiosity and practice them. Josh, it looks like you might know of one.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Tell me more. Andy, I do, I do. I have one specifically for you for this situation. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

There's there's this. organization called Flourish Veterinary Consulting and Flourish Veterinary Consulting. Yeah, they have a thing called the Flourish Academy, um which is where uh the Flourish Academy mascot Percy spends a lot of his time. And um the Flourish Academy has a has a program called the Certificate in Cultivating Positive Team Communication that actually teaches and gives people the opportunity to practice things like overt curiosity. Yeah, it's pretty cool. You should check it out. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

You know, I think I've heard that. And I think one entire module is based on curiosity where you get to dive deeper into what that looks like and really like play with it in a safe space so that when you go out into the real world, it's not so scary. You get to kind of build those muscles in in in a safe, in a safe, all welcoming gym as opposed to out in the real world. Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, that's spot on. And if we had more time, I would be asking you what what most excites you about that? But unfortunately we don't have that. That would take a lot of time because I get excited about a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

You know what I also get excited about and is worth the time to take today?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Does it have anything to do with people in Florida doing Florida things?

SPEAKER_02 45:12

It has everything to do with people in Florida doing Florida things. This week's Florida Man headline is pretty special. Okay. Are you ready? I'm ready for it. Is everyone sitting down because this one is pretty good. Florida man attempting time travel crashes into a casket shop.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

I don't even I don't even know what to do with that.

unknown 45:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Right, right. Now I think that it's worth noting because I read down through the article which I will absolutely link in the show notes because everyone needs a little bit of this in their lives that not only was it a casket shop, it was a building that had a casket shop and tax services in the same space.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

The only two guaranteed life death and taxes.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Exactly exactly oh I was giggling I was giggling this was a funny one.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Gosh I can't wait to read this I'm dying to know how this person was attempting time travel. Like did they buy a DeLorean?

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Right? Was there a flux capacitor? I have questions.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Oh that's a good one. Well done. Good find.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Uh yeah never never a dull moment in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Never a dull moment in Florida.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Oh and with that I want to say thanks to all of our listeners out there for spending time with us at the lab. Of course we will share the links to the papers and all the other things that we mentioned in the show notes. Be sure to follow us drop a review and let us know what you think. And we'll see you next time in the Veterinary Culture Lab. Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, powered by the science of workplace well-being and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting. If today's episode sparked an idea made you smile or got you thinking hey I should totally try that let us know what do you think? Be sure to subscribe share and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible and you don't have to build it alone