Hello. Hello, Josh. How are you? How have things been going with you? It's good to see you again. 

Yeah, it's good to see you again too. So, Andy, we are, um, we're recording this 34 minutes late today. Mm-hmm. You want, you want to tell me why we're recording this late today? 

Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, the short answer is because horses and really, truly for the horse people out there that are listening, that's all you need to know.

However, this particular hashtag, because horses has to do with, uh, one of the horses in my barn that belongs to my husband is a redheaded thoroughbred gelding. Again, the horse people listening will know that that means that there's little happening between the ears on most days. Today he decided that flinging himself up against the wall in his stall was a good idea and that it was really fun and that it was so fun that he shifted the cinder block wall in the stall about, I don't know, six, seven inches to Leaning. Tower of Pisa. Dangerous levels. And so yeah. 

you sent me pictures of this. Yeah. And I looked at the pictures and I thought to myself, if I attempted to do that, I've been to your barn. I've seen the stalls. If I attempted to do that, I would be hospitalized. And the wall would look exactly the same.

Yes. It's in the box. Yeah. Like it's not, you know, it's not huffing. It's like. It's not straw, thatched walls, it's cinder box and it has shifted, like you can see in the pictures. There's, you know, there's dirt and then there's no dirt and there's a lot of space, and the wall is gonna fall down at any point.

And so the last 34 minutes of my time were spent shifting courses moving everybody around because I don't want a wall to fall down on anybody like. Ain't nobody got time for that, right? 

Ain't nobody got time. So we had to do some shifting. Put somebody outside, shift some people around, get everybody organized, you know, calm the energy, give everyone some hay and get everybody situated.

I then had to. Breathe and calm down a little bit and refocus my brain so that I could move forward with my day, because as you can imagine, this was not fun and not cool and not what I was expecting to do today. So, no, not at all. Yeah, that's why I'm a little bit late. Hashtag just another day on Davison Farms, basically.

Basically, yeah. Yeah. Get a farm. They said it'll be fun. They said it'll be fun. Well, I, I have something to share with you that maybe will uplift your spirits a bit. Oh yes. I actually. I've had a bit of a mixed bag the first half of my day as well, a bit of ups and downs, but I had kind of a cool up just before, uh, this call, and actually us delaying the recording benefited me because it allowed me to actually answer the phone.

So I, I got a call from an unknown caller and typically I don't answer that, but I was sitting here, I was sort of just waiting to see. You know, what was gonna happen with you and your horse? And, um, so I figured I'd pick it up and I answered it. And it turned out it was the, um, the electric company here.

Mm-hmm. Uh, the, the company that provides our electricity, which is unusual that they were calling me. Um, but they, I picked up the phone and, you know, is this Josh Weisman? Yes, it is. And, and they, they, they wrote to me to tell me that my payment to them was outstanding. And I thought, what a cool compliment.

Like so nice to take time just to call me and tell me my payment's outstanding. You totally had me until the last 10 seconds. I was literally like, he answered the phone and it was the electric. I mean, you, you had me, you legit had me. Nice. All right. Well, 

one outta three is not bad. I'm 33% success rate.

It's gonna get me into the baseball hall of fame. 

It's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, it's pretty good. There's plenty of time to get me even more so. Yes, that was a win. That was a win. Oh my goodness. All right, so what I was thinking about today was to maybe start with a quick story. It is actually one from my own career.

Now, early on I worked at a small animal hospital as a veterinary assistant. One of the vets at this hospital. She was one of those high energy, sort of always on the go docs. And I swear, I don't think I ever saw her sit down. And I remember when I was accepted to tech school, she gave me some advice. She said, Andy, if you wanna make it in this field, you'd better be tougher than everyone else and hustle for it every day.

Oh, wow. 

And I took that to heart, right? I mean, I'm a, I'm a child of the eighties and the nineties, and like a lot of people, we were raised to believe that hustle was the path to success. Mm-hmm. Right? Long hours. That was your badge of honor burnout. That was proof that you were doing it right. 

Yep. 

Now that belief, Josh, it followed me into my veterinary career and I was pretty proud of my constant hustle.

I was just like that high energy doc, and just like her, I didn't sit down much either. Now for a while, it worked until it didn't, and I started wondering, is this really what thriving is supposed to feel like? Mm-hmm. Because thriving and surviving. They're not the same thing. 

Not at all. 

Not at all. So that's what I'd love to talk about today, this idea that success.

It doesn't have to be a solo endurance sport. We can be strong, right? And we can strive to be strong, but we also need to be well supported. 

Yeah. 

So Josh, before we dive into this research, I would love to ask you, have you ever had a moment where you realized that maybe your grit and gumption was working against your wellbeing?

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Um, Andy, you know that I'm a little bit obsessed with playing indoor soccer. That's like my, my physical outlet. It's the thing that I do. My wife, gta and I, we play in a, a co-ed team on Sundays. Mm-hmm. I'm currently playing in an, an over 30 league on Tuesdays.

Ooh. Yeah. I'm the old guy. Um, and then I manage an over 40 team on Wednesdays, and then this summer I'm actually playing outdoor on Thursdays too. Ooh, awesome. A totally different piece. Yeah. So totally love it. The reason I'm sharing that with you is because I, I think back to the last, um, practice that I was involved in, it was, um.

It was a small animal practice. We were open seven days a week. Uh, it was an existing hospital that myself and some business partners that acquired, and this was going to be the first partnered acquisition and what was hopefully going to be a series of multiple acquisitions. Right. So this was my. You know, from the ground up foray into, uh, uh, practice consolidation.

So entrepreneurial endeavor, adventure. Mm-hmm. And I really thought that exactly like what that vet gave you advice for. Like, you know, you, you gotta be tougher than everybody. You gotta hustle for. For it. You gotta work your, your butt off. And, uh, if the harder and the more that you work, the more success that you're gonna find.

And so that's what I did. I dove in, uh, this hospital was 75 miles from where I live in Colorado and I went there every day, sometimes all seven days in the week. So I'm putting, you know, 150 to 200 miles on my car every day. Uh, sometimes in the car for three or four hours for the commute. And then onsite at the hospital between 10 and 14 hours a day.

Wow. In addition to that, helping to try and identify other hospitals to buy. One of my business partners had started up a, a consulting firm. I was helping with that, like, I mean, I was working. 80 to a hundred hours a week. Easy. Easy. Not much sleep, mostly just work all day. All the time. Hustle. 

Hustle. 

Yeah.

Which meant that like, you know, I was doing the hustle, I was doing the thing that I thought entrepreneurs were supposed to do, but I was also not doing all the other things that fueled me. I was not spending time with my wife. I was not spending time with friends. I was not playing soccer anymore. Mm-hmm.

I let all of those things go and it just kept going and it just kept going and it just kept going until I felt like I couldn't really go anymore. So what did I do? I just kept going until one day, like, I literally could not, like physically, could not, and completely broke down. I mean, totally. And completely broke down.

So, yeah. I, I think I have a sense of, of what you're referring to here. 

Mm. Yeah. I'm exhausted just listening. 

Listening. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was terrible. It was, um, I learned so many amazing lessons in those couple of years and, um, I hope no one else ever has to learn those lessons. Hmm. 

Yeah. These stories, they really fuel this research that I'm about to share with you and, uh, let's dive into it, right?

'cause I'm pretty excited to share this and bring this out into the world. 

I'm excited to hear about it. 

So the research that we're gonna look at today comes from an article called Thriving at Work. It is a 2023 study that comes from the Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership. It's based on survey data from 362 participants.

Now the interesting part and the part that got me so excited is that this specifically focuses on women and thriving at work, which is incredibly relevant for vet med, right? Because according to the A VMA, women make up nearly two thirds of our profession. So this isn't just a side note, this is center stage.

The big question that the researchers were asking here was, what does it mean to thrive at work and what gets in the way? And spoiler alert, it is not just about having the right mindset or pushing through hard times. This study found that thriving is made up of three big things, making a positive contribution.

Having the opportunity to learn and grow and feeling valued and recognized. So no, it's not about being the best or being the fastest or being the busiest. It's about doing meaningful work and being seen because of it. Now here, this is where it gets really interesting because according to this bit of science, the top barriers to thriving were not internal.

They were cultural. And between you and me, not shocking at all. 

Not shocking, 

right? They were poor communication, ineffective leadership, and unsustainable workloads. Uh. Can everyone relate to that? I mean, hello, vet me, right? 

Yeah. 

So yeah, if your hospital, it feels chaotic. If your manager avoids conversations.

If your tech team is spread way too thin, this research reiterates that you are not crazy, and that these are real measurable threats to your thriving, your culture's thriving, our industries thriving. What researchers found and they shared with us is. Something that made a lot of sense to me. They argue that there are some enablers to thriving,

things that we can do and things that we can promote within our world to support thriving and those things are having a good manager. 

Mm-hmm. 

Experiencing clear and transparent communication, being supported to use your strengths, having opportunities to develop professionally. So basically when cultures are built to lift people up, they actually do better work.

Again, no surprise there, but it sure is nice to have data behind it because the truth is employees that feel like they're thriving are more engaged, they're more creative, they're more likely to stick around. They're more likely to do what everyone's looking for, which is to go above and beyond, right?

Yeah. And they're gonna do it because. They want to, not because they have to. So if thriving is about being better supported at work, then this research is really encouraging us to take a look at our workplaces. Josh, I'm dying to know what's coming up for you here. Have you seen any of this show up in teams that you've interacted with and worked with?

Oh yeah. There's a lot of things that are coming up for me here. Uh, the first thing that popped into my mind is this idea of thriving. Um, you know, we know from work of folks like, um, Jane Dutton and Gretchen Spreitzer, and I think Adam Grant was even involved in this, a paper that was published in early 2000 out of the University of Michigan on this concept of thriving at work.

They basically describe thriving as, um, vitality and growth. Mm-hmm. So I feel energized. Spin and buy the work that I do, and I'm developing, like, I feel like I'm a slightly better version of myself today than I was yesterday because of the work that I get to do those kinds of things. So this seems to echo that.

That was the first thing that popped up for me. The second thing was this idea of like, you know, uh, the enablers having a good manager, like we know. There's all sorts of research. We can look at the research. Yeah. So much from Gallup and the role that managers play. You know, 70 something percent of the variance in engagement scores come from the relationship with your direct manager.

Uh, we know that almost 40% of, um, job satisfaction comes as a result of the relationship that we have with our direct manager, those kinds of things. We also know the power of communication. We know the power of, uh, focusing on strengths, um, you know, things like. Uh, something we'll probably get into in a future episode, uh, the feed Forward interview and focusing on building on people's strengths rather than trying to quote, fix their weaknesses, stuff like that.

And then as far as like where I've seen this, you know, I, I think of a practice that, that you and I both know mm-hmm. Uh, that we did some work with as an organization a few years ago. And I feel like they have all these enablers. Whether they, whether they knew about this research or not, they sort of mm-hmm.

Intuitively came to these enablers on their own. Um, the leadership there is rock solid and very much involved in the day-to-day lives of the people who work there, to the point where one of the business partners actually stepped out of working in the clinic to become the chief. People, officer, in the organization, the way that she puts it, which I think is just so beautiful and eloquent, she sees her job now as taking care of those that walk through the back door so they can take care of those who walk through the front door.

Oh, I love that. Like that is leadership, right? Mm-hmm. And their communication efforts, like the things that they do, the structures they have in place, how. Built the operation to be transparent, open, timely with their communication. They're very much focused on strengths. They're constantly looking for, uh, the unique strengths and qualities that light people up and that add to the team and how they can build off of those and make sure those things get to shine on a regular basis.

They're all about professional development and interpersonal development. By the way. They do a lot of things to help people grow. Um, I met them at a conference where they. Brought, paid all expenses, paid almost 20 members of their 80 member team to that conference. Oh, wow. But also, they do things like.

Offsite as well to help build and strengthen relationships within the organization. And so not at all a surprise that through like, you know, 2020 and through the end of 2022, essentially like all of COVID, if you will. Mm-hmm. They had exactly 4% turnover. Wow. Wow. I mean, any, any veterinary practice to have 4% turnover any time Yeah.

Is amazing at all. Yeah. But during COVID, like, yeah. Wow. So I, I, to me, this is living evidence of what this research is conveying. Mm-hmm. 

That's such a great example. And listening to you talk about that brings, um, another little bit of science up that I bet you this particular hospital has somehow worked into, you know, their culture into their system.

And this bit of research comes from somebody that you've already mentioned, Dr. Jane Dutton. But it is the work that she does on the, uh, 20% rule is what she calls it. And I think this is super valid here and really valuable, especially for us in ve. And you know, those of us that work with the team, those of us that lead a team, understanding this 20% rule could be really, really helpful.

Mm-hmm. Now, what this is, is that recognition, right, that when we are doing tasks that we enjoy tasks that are exciting for us, tasks that we look forward to, we're utilizing our strengths, and if we're able. To do these tasks 20% of the time. 

Mm-hmm. 

We will see thriving and it will positively affect our wellbeing 20% of the time.

That's like one day a week. That's a couple of hours during your shift. And this research was fascinating to me because honestly, Josh, when I read it, I was like, oh, okay, 20% of the time, do what you love. That's really great. And then I stopped and I went, wait a minute. That's it. Just 20% of the time, like I thought I'd read it wrong and I had to go back and look at it again because I was expecting the number to be much higher.

And what it turns, turns out is that 20% seems to be that sweet spot. 

That 

if you experience tasks that you know, you get jazzed about more than 20% of the time, you actually don't see a significant jump in your thriving or wellbeing. However, when you are doing tasks that you get energized and jazzed about less than 20% of the time, that's where that little burnout monster starts to kind of creep in and show up.

Mm-hmm. For you. That parallels with the findings of this study so beautifully on that focus on strengths and the importance and the value of understanding more about what they are for us and how to implement them in a way that's meaningful for us. 

So I think, I think what you're saying is that based on this research.

If we can ensure that folks have the opportunity to spend about 20% of their time at work doing meaningful things, things that they find meaningful, personally fulfilling, whatever it might be, that that's gonna fuel them enough. That they'll be able to endure the other 80% where things maybe aren't quite as enticing or exciting or fulfilling or maybe even give them the fuel to endure and persevere through the other 80% where things are actually kind of challenging and a pain in the ass.

So, so my question to you then, Andy, is how does this apply to a cultural renovation? So somebody, somebody listens to this episode and they think to themselves, gosh, I. I'm interested in this research. I'm gonna go read this article. Wow. This idea of thriving really makes a difference. I, I, this is important to me.

I wanna make sure that I'm renovating the culture in my practice to enable thriving. What, what recommendations would you have? 

The first thing that comes to mind is it surrounds my most favorite thing in the whole wide world, which is curiosity and the value that comes with genuine curiosity. Right. Get curious about what.

Makes up that 20% for the people that you work with. Find the opportunity. Maybe it's in a one-on-one, maybe it's in, you know, I don't know, rounds or,, like a morning huddle. Maybe it's an anonymous, well, no anonymous. Not anonymous, but maybe there's like a ranking system so that you can say, gosh, I, this I really love.

Placing IV catheters. I just, that's awesome. I get really excited. I'm not really excited about stocking, but I know it has to happen. But I'll tell you what, dealing with cranky client lady, uh uh, I, mm. That is where I just, I know that I have to adult and do that sometimes, but it is not something that I look forward 

to.

Yeah. 

And that might be different for you, right? Josh, you may really dislike placing IV catheters, but restocking it like, yes, the organizational part of your brain goes nuts and you get to get out the label maker and label stuff and that's amazing for you. 

Yeah. Yeah. There might be 

something totally different that you really like, and I really think that there's a lot of value that can come from getting curious with your team.

Asking them. 

Yeah. What 

gets them jazzed up? What's, eh, okay, I get it. We gotta do this. It's really an indifferent sort of task. And what do they , kind of dread doing? 

Okay. So, so to me this seems like, an energy audit , of sorts, right? So you can, you could list out the tasks for a particular role.

Mm-hmm. The typical day-to-day tasks that a typical role has to say. Placing IV catheters, uh, you know, restocking the bandage drawer, monitoring anesthesia, all those kinds of things, right? And then you can have, I'm, I'm stealing this from you 'cause you've shared this already in the past, but you could basically have three columns.

So you list the tax tasks and. One column says, this is an energizing task for me. The other column says, the middle column says this is a neutral task, and then the the far column says that this is a draining task. And you just have people just quickly go through and mark, mm-hmm. Like, put a check mark for each of these tasks.

And then maybe you could even have like three or four spaces at the end and say, okay, list three or four tasks or activities that aren't on this list that always energize you. Oh yeah. That you wish you could do more, right? Yep. And so then now as a manager, you've got an idea, Hey, I know for a fact that Andy Davison absolutely loves anesthesia.

Hashtag sarcasm, hashtag sarcasm. Um, right. So like, but, but you, you have an idea of what everybody, like what fills everybody's cup. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is not so much about, okay, how do I make sure Andy never has to do anesthesia? Rather, it's about how do I make sure Andy gets to do the things that energize her enough times so that when I have to ask her to do anesthesia, she could still do it Well.

Yep. Absolutely gold. Absolute gold. Yes. Because it's true. We have to, we have to adult, right? Mm-hmm. We have to do stuff that we don't always wanna do. That is part of life, and that's part of what we need to do in order to reach our goals and contribute to veterinary medicine. Yeah. So thinking of it as an approachable, like how do I ensure that?

We're getting to do stuff that fills our cup so that when those inevitable things come along that I don't really wanna, you have, you have, here we go. The bandwidth to go and do it. Yeah. It's not draining every little thing out of you. Yeah. Yep. I love this. Do, do you mind if I make an uh, a related suggestion?

Oh, please. Yes. I wanna hear it. Thanks. I, um, one thing that I've come to realize is that like, I love these assessment kind of things. This, you know, this, uh, energy audit. I think it's a phenomenal idea and I hope that people actually listen to this and go do it. Mm-hmm. And sometimes, um, some people I feel like.

Actually struggle to be, to, uh, cultivate the kind of awareness to know, like right off the bat, the things that definitely energize 'em. Or sometimes there's a little bit of complexity to it too. It's like, well, you know, sometimes anesthesia actually is energizing to me, but mm-hmm. Sometimes it's, I really would rather avoid it.

And so, uh, you know, they get a little bit caught up in how to answer that. So, another thing that I think. Folks can do, especially leaders who are like, um, intimately involved in the day-to-day of their team. So you're on the floor, or your office is right next to the treatment area or whatever it might be, um, is to do your own sort of like subjective energy audit, challenge yourself during periods of time throughout the day to just watch the team.

Just watch. Mm-hmm. And see, wow, you know what? That cat came in and, uh, that cat needed a cysto. And I just, Andy just dove in. Like, I've actually never really seen her jump at an activity the way that she did just then. That's interesting. Now, after that, cat's done the cysto ISS complete. We've done the urinalysis and the cat's out the door.

Pull Andy aside and say, Hey, I couldn't help but notice when that cysto came back that you just lit up. What about that was so energizing for you? Right. And then now you're doing an audit in a way that like it combines some of what you just said, that curiosity. Yeah. You're getting to know your people.

You're also getting the side benefit of developing a relationship, showing them that they matter to you, that you're paying attention to them, those kinds of things. And you'll learn things about not just the tasks that energize people, but the underlying drivers, the values, the things that really matter to them, that lead to that task being energizing.

Well, and to add on that, because on the flip side, the person that you are noticing is getting noticed. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes, they're aware that you've seen them. They're gonna feel seen. They're gonna be like, oh my gosh, Josh noticed that I got excited about this cat cysto. Uh, yeah. And that's, that alone is gonna be empowering.

And I, I love that. 'cause both sides will benefit. That's great. I love that. Yes. Golden. . That's beautiful. Um, one of the other ideas that I had that I'm gonna share really quickly 'cause I think it's helpful and it goes, it kind of goes to some of the other enablers, right? Obviously working to your strengths is kind of a big deal and there's a lot of things that we can do for that.

Um, but. That value, right? That value of being seen and being heard, you know, that we just talked about with being noticed. I think that there's a lot there as well, and I could see a lot of value for leaders, for team members, for colleagues to get curious about that as well, and maybe start to ask. When people feel like they are most valued at work, to really understand more about what that looks like and work that into one-on-ones, you know, work that into check-ins, work that into conversations to learn more about when other people feel like they're making a difference and that they're valued and that they're contributing to the things that are going on at work.

Yeah, I think. I think that's awesome. Um, asking people about when they feel like they're contributing in ways that matter to them mm-hmm. Is, um, a direct line to the experience of meaningfulness. Mm-hmm. I mean, that, that's part of the construct of meaningfulness is feeling that what you did, um, was positive, purposeful, and significant.

And that significance is about like, feeling like I contributed in a valuable way. So just asking people when, when did you feel like you contributed in a valuable way? And how do we make sure we get you more opportunities to do that? I think that's great. Yep. Curiosity. It's a superpower. It's it's a superpower.

Yeah. Um, you know what, you know what else is a superpower? What? This week's Florida Man headline. I love this segment so much. It is, it's a good one, guys. It's a good one. Once again, it comes to us from. Southern Florida and this week's Florida man. Headline is Florida. Man. Enjoyed arrest. Thought it was like being on live pd.

This particular Florida man told the police that he quote really enjoyed being arrested because he felt like he was on a hit reality TV show. When the officers attempt to attempted to handcuff him, this particular Florida man made his body go limp. He then proceeded to engage in erratic behavior after being restrained.

He told officers that he really enjoyed resisting arrest because it was like being on live pd. He was arrested and charged with resisting arrest and disorderly conduct. 

Oh my gosh. I love Florida, man. 

Oh gosh. All the, all the poor choices. It's that, that one made me laugh out loud.

Oh, yeah. No, that's a good one. That's a, that's one way to get your. It's not even 15 minutes of fame. Right, right. Yeah. 

I had like bad boys. Bad boys. Yeah. Whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come forward? You was in my head. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, good, good, huh.

All right. Well listeners, if you try any of these out, if you get curious with your teams, if you have some of those conversations about what their strengths are. When they feel like they're being valued, we'd love to hear about it. So check out the show notes for all of the links to these articles and all of the subsequent things that we shared with you, the extra science spots.

And, uh, we're looking forward to hearing you at the next episode. 

Don't forget to hit that subscribe button, 

like and subscribe. Like, and subscribe. Uh, thanks Josh. This is a good one. 

Yeah, thanks Andy. It's good to see you today. 

All right, see you everybody next time.

But wait, 

Before we let you go, just a quick correction from today's conversation. I mistakenly credited Dr. Jane Dutton with the research behind the 20% Meaningful Work Rule. While she has done a lot of incredible work , that specific concept actually comes from Dr. Shanafelt and his colleagues at the Mayo Clinic.

You'll find the correct citation in our show notes. Thanks for letting us clear that up and yep, see you next time.